Generation Whine

[ethics]

Here it goes, folks, the shot that made people wake up and it's coming from<a href="http://www.usatoday.com/life/lifestyle/2005-02-15-self-esteem_x.htm"> USA Today</a> (of all places):

Sobel, the mother of 16-year-old twins in Sherman Oaks, Calif., says they could tell "what was real and what was fake," even when very young. "I was tired of going to the sports field and seeing moms say, 'Great job at going up to bat.' It hit me early on that kids could see through inane compliments."

Those often-empty phrases, however, raised a generation. Kids born in the '70s and '80s are now coming of age. The colorful ribbons and shiny trophies they earned just for participating made them feel special. But now, in college and the workplace, observers are watching them crumble a bit at the first blush of criticism.

"I often get students in graduate school doing doctorates who made straight A's all their lives, and the first time they get tough feedback, the kind you need to develop skills," says Deborah Stipek, dean of education at Stanford University. "I have a box of Kleenex in my office because they haven't dealt with it before."

The lament goes that about 20 years ago, "schools got sidetracked into worrying more about feelings" than actually teaching kids what they need to know to succeed. As a result, young workers arrive at their first jobs with a double burden: substandard skills, and no ability to handle criticism. Since it's hard to show people where they need to improve performance without at least some negative feedback, employers may be facing some soggy desktops.

This forum has been very vocal about disensitizing competition, or in some cases, how schools just eliminated competitions, criticism, or anything that gave "negative vibes" and now? Those kids of yesterday are in a world of hurt because reality came knocking at the door.

I actually feel sorry for the kids, they didn't know.

[Kangaroo]

Well, my son joined the Marine Corps right out of high school, last summer. He had no trouble accepting the psychological break-down of boot camp. In fact, he ate it up. He liked the challenge. His gripes are typical of a E-2 from my time in the military. No whining, no crying. Perhaps it is a more geographic phenomena.


As an employer, I would definitely weed out the whiny weak-sisters at the interview stage with some carefully constructed critizisms and tough questioning. I would also want to see the transcripts for recent college graduates. Too many touchy-feely crap classes and your out.

[ethics]

Not sure about many spots in employment but investment firms strictly look for jocks for sales and hard jobs. Why?

One CFO explained it as they know how to lose, pick themselves up, dust themselves off and swing the bat again. They weren't the brightest but when job required tough skin and tough assignments these boys were chosen first.

[Steve]

Yours is the first explanation I've ever been given as to the (non-physical-fitness) value of school sports. I never thought of it that way.

[ethics]

It's a huge plus on any resume for a Wall Street job, even if it was just High School sports (Football, Baseball, Hockey, Basketball, Lacrosse, etc...)

[MNeedham73]

Well, my son joined the Marine Corps right out of high school, last summer. He had no trouble accepting the psychological break-down of boot camp. In fact, he ate it up. He liked the challenge. His gripes are typical of a E-2 from my time in the military. No whining, no crying. Perhaps it is a more geographic phenomena.

I was the same way going through basic. Didn't bother me too much.

But, I grew up a military brat, so you could say I had 18 years of preparation. :)

[RetFireCapt]

It all started with that idiotic change from "junior high school" to "middle school". Can't be attacking the precious angel's self esteem with the word junior now, can we?

I'm happy to see that the educator types have finally seen this for the BS it is.

[Plunge]

Reading this, I think Ballet and Piano has been huge in helping my daughter handle and actually progress when receiving criticism. Since starting point, her ballet has been brutal. The instructors are extremely demanding and while they give complements, they are earned, not just feel good.

Same with piano at the level that she is at. Competitions are fierce and evaluations humbling.

Both are far more critical than I ever could be, probably a good thing, especially with my parents living with us and my mother unable to say a harsh word to my daughter. All praise all the time. My daughter has quickly learned the praise that means something, the praise that is earned and the praise that is hollow words.

[Piobaireachd]

I think part of the problem is that we are not teaching kids what we should be teaching. In my day pushing kids through the system was called "streamlining". I'm not sure if this was to spare "feelings" of failure or not.

My dad taught graphic arts at a local community technical college for a long time. He had people who I graduated from HS with who couldn't read a ruler or do simple addition and subtraction of fractions (kind of a useful skill in the printing industry).

Enough of the "hug 'em and love 'em" classes and get back to the basics especially science and math.

[Domh]

Enough of the "hug 'em and love 'em" classes and get back to the basics especially science and math.

And spankings and slappings, frankly.

Another reason the children of this generation are completely incapable of dealing with reality is because so many were raised in the new-age school of parenting where punishment consisted of being put in ones room to play video games on the 27" and denied the widescreen surround sound.

Hardship. Pain. Adversity. These are teachers. Americas youth no longer have them - OR... they have NOTHING BUT THEM.

These children werent taught perspective either at school or at home.

[Piobaireachd]

And spankings and slappings, frankly.

Another reason the children of this generation are completely incapable of dealing with reality is because so many were raised in the new-age school of parenting where punishment consisted of being put in ones room to play video games on the 27" and denied the widescreen surround sound.

Hardship. Pain. Adversity. These are teachers. Americas youth no longer have them - OR... they have NOTHING BUT THEM.

These children werent taught perspective either at school or at home.

Exactly...

[RetFireCapt]

Or the ubiquitous "time out". I can safely say we were not "time out" parents.

[ethics]

I love what this reader wrote:

See, everyone in the honors program were used to getting A's. After the little darlings took the mid-term and some of them got (gasp) an "average" (read: C) grade, they freaked and either dropped the course, or threatened to sue the school for ruining their entire career potential, etc.

Grade inflation is also prevalent, even at Ivy League schools where now the "average" is about a B+ instead of a C. Weeding out all of the 4.0 applicants for admission is almost futile: instead of actually having some measurement of achievement, all that's there is a meter pegged to the max.

This is one place where standardized testing is necessary (like it or not). I'm not saying it should be the ONLY datum for evaluation (that would be extremely short-sighted) but it does put everyone on a comparative playing field, and it does point out schools and districts that aren't competitive. Of course multiple choice tests do not cover whether or not a student understands the "how" and "why" something works, but the trend over the last several years has been that "problem" or essay tests have been edged out in favor of easily gradeable (and scoring defendable) multiple choice tests (and their ilk).

One of the communities in my area is almost universally against any kind of testing whatsoever because of the self-esteem "hit" when Biff and Muffy discover that their A's don't translate into their actually learning what they were supposed to. At the same time, though, this community is intending to "score" children on their BMI index as part of their report card, despite all of the inherent interpretation problems that has (not to mention the associated statistical irregularities). Of course that could have it's own unintended hilarity: "We're sorry Mrs. Jones, but your son, despite his 4.0 GPA and perfect SATs didn't make the cutoff for admission into IvyLeague U. because his BMI was 0.05 above the cutoff."

In terms of the workplace, I don't notice the inability to handle criticism quite as much as the extremely poor mastery of elementary skills: spelling, language, math. I work (now) at a place that is entrenched in media production. Just this morning on the way to the office I was walking behind two people who couldn't put a complex sentence together to save their lives and without the obligatory "like" peppered everywhere. I frequently find simple grammar mistakes in final copies of texts — things that I learned long before high school. Yet I'm certain their resumes were impressive...

I'm depressed on a nightly basis on my walk home through Harvard Yard where the same issues are repeated over and over: vapid, careless, and willfully neglectful abuses of the English language. I just want to scream "HOW did you get ever accepted?" Sadly, I'm certain that many of them had simply WONDERFUL GPA's.

[Steve]

Time out works with some kids and has its place in the overall disciplinary scheme. Our oldest gets all bent out of shape when put into time out; it works about 80% of the time. The middle one couldn't care less about time outs but will melt if you so much as glare at her. Can't wait to see what the little is like when it comes to discipline; so far, she accepts "no" with reasonable aplomb for a 16-month-old.

Spanking's always the last resort at our house but the behavior addressed never needs addressing again.

[ethics]

Our elder was brought up with many warnings and explanations. Spanking should never be done without you being fully confident that the kid knows what and why he is being spanked. After about 4-5 warnings, we would resort to that but you know what, I can count the times on my left hand.

[Steve]

I always make sure:

a) They know what they're doing that we don't want them doing;

b) The consequences for continuing doing it;

c) We carry through on the consequences.

They understand, from experience, that when we say "If you do that again, you'll get a spanking"....they get a spanking.

We also work real hard to make sure to explain to them why the can't do those things. Sometimes they get it, often they receive an intermediate punishment, and once in a great while they get spanked.

Funny how everyone who's ever met our girls comments on how nice, well-behaved, and well-adjusted they are ;)

[Fiona]

I still think it's better to have that overt support and reinforcement when you are young, praise goes along way. However to carry over into middle school and high school years, I think is wrong. You should be learning to compete in the 5th grade IMO and many others agree with me- (doesn't mean we are right.) That is the natural age of leaving babyhood, gaining independence and developing a clear sense of competition...

Example: son goes to touchy feely school right? I did that on purpose, because i felt the touchy feely with a GREAT education was better than the CRAP of local public schools. Up through the end of his 4th grade year, the were ONE class. Everyone got along, Everyone was the others friend. There were no outcasts. The smart weren't overly praised. The slower students weren't ostracized. It was a wonderful happy class.

This year (5th grade) suddenly, there are girls that NOBODY likes... boys who are "annoying" and "weird." The girls giggle about the boys, the boys wrestle and build forts, exclude the girls and secretly like some of them- shhhh.
Academically, these kids have seemingly suddenly entered a world of competition. But it was a natural progression. They want to do better simply to outdo their peers. They already have the thirst for knowledge so that isn't an issue. They want to be the best, for now it is just for esteem, but soon they will realize the consequences and hopefully continue in their striving to succeed.

Just thoughts...

I forgot to mention... I thought this was from that article "What teachers hate about parents" Similar, but not the same... :) I think the problems come from the pushy "spoil my child or I'll sue you" parents. We have a whole generation of parents insisting that their children not face any ridicule, be included in everything, be given a good grade just for trying. Trying is great, it should be taken into account, however it isn't succeeding. I wouldn't want to be a teacher these days. It's more politics with parents and school boards and rarely about education. :thumbdown

[Techie2000]

Personally I think spankings are stupid. Spaking lasts all of a few seconds and you may as well have given the kid an MMR immunization or flu shot instead. FWIW as a child, I was spanked, it didn't really do much, and later my parents changed over to this much despised "new age" stuff and by golly it worked.

[jfcjrus]

Here it goes, folks, the shot that made people wake up and it's coming from<a href="http://www.usatoday.com/life/lifestyle/2005-02-15-self-esteem_x.htm"> USA Today</a> (of all places):

Sobel, the mother of 16-year-old twins in Sherman Oaks, Calif., says they could tell "what was real and what was fake," even when very young. "I was tired of going to the sports field and seeing moms say, 'Great job at going up to bat.' It hit me early on that kids could see through inane compliments."

Those often-empty phrases, however, raised a generation. Kids born in the '70s and '80s are now coming of age. The colorful ribbons and shiny trophies they earned just for participating made them feel special. But now, in college and the workplace, observers are watching them crumble a bit at the first blush of criticism.

"I often get students in graduate school doing doctorates who made straight A's all their lives, and the first time they get tough feedback, the kind you need to develop skills," says Deborah Stipek, dean of education at Stanford University. "I have a box of Kleenex in my office because they haven't dealt with it before."

The lament goes that about 20 years ago, "schools got sidetracked into worrying more about feelings" than actually teaching kids what they need to know to succeed. As a result, young workers arrive at their first jobs with a double burden: substandard skills, and no ability to handle criticism. Since it's hard to show people where they need to improve performance without at least some negative feedback, employers may be facing some soggy desktops.

This forum has been very vocal about disensitizing competition, or in some cases, how schools just eliminated competitions, criticism, or anything that gave "negative vibes" and now? Those kids of yesterday are in a world of hurt because reality came knocking at the door.

I actually feel sorry for the kids, they didn't know.
An excellent synopsis.

And to carry it a bit further;
The teachers of today are the pampered 'kids' of the past 20 years, that you mention.
Or, the generation of never-diciplined, self-absorbed, materialistic brats are now in a position to 'teach' the current generation.
Think about it, and tell me you don't think THAT'S rather unsettling.

And, yet, the only solution we can think of is to pour 'MORE MONEY' into the schools.
Yup, sure, that'll fix everything.

Just my thoughts.
Regards,

[MNeedham73]

Spanking worked on me, that's for sure. I can count on my fingers the times that I got spanked (strangely enough, I'm pretty sure I remember each and every time).

I know what didn't work - getting grounded. I didn't have a TV/ atari/nintendo/stereo/etc or anything like that in my room either. But, I did have what a lot of kids seem to lack a bit of nowadays. An imagination.

I could find plenty to do in my room that made getting grounded completely useless as a form of punishment when I was a little kid.

[cmhbob]

We don't use just time-outs, or just spanking. We've got 6 kids, and what works well with one doesn't with another. Not enough bedrooms in the house to ground them to a room, and the oldest is only 8, so grounding in general doesn't mean much to her. Heck, the 6-year-old is now doing push-ups for some infractions (and he's got good form, too!). But they work for him.

Don't get me started about public schools. The local district is gearing up to put yet another 9.7 mil levy on the special May ballot. This is after 2 defeats, in November and last week, accompanied by much hand-wring over how sad it is that all extra-curriculars are going to be dropped next year, and how horrible this will be for this year's juniors, to have nothing, NOTHING, I TELL YOU to do in their senior year, and....

Hmm. Maybe that should be another post.

jfcjrus's comment about the pampered kids of yesterday being today's teachers (and school board leaders) is right on.

[caicos2]

As a public school teacher close to retirement, I agree wholeheartedly with these posts. There are about 10 of us left in a faculty of 125 who are from the "old" school of earning one's grade and acting appropriately, and we argue constantly with the administration (all of them are youngsters) about most of their "feel good" ideas of education. The problem is that they were not only raised this way, but were also taught this way in both public school and in college education classes (notorious for teaching every hairbrained theory that comes down the pike), and are supported by the younger teachers, who came up in the same situation. We call it the "welfare" education plan because most of our students are 3rd or 4th generation welfare families and truly believe that the "government" owes them a wonderful life, consisting of no worries and no limits on what they are allowed to do. This is reinforced every time a parent or a small group of parents complain about some policy, and the administration then rescinds the policy. An example: 2 years ago, the school passed a policy that students could not wear sagging pants. The first day of school about 30 parents were called and told to bring a change of clothing or take their child home. They were incensed and came to the school demanding that their child be allowed to wear what was in style because the kids didn't want to be out of style and it was hard on teenagers to be different from kids they saw on TV or in music videos. The administration buckled, and now kids wear their pants down around their knees with their underwear in full view for all to see. While I personally don't care what they wear, I know that the school sent out a terrible message to the public, parents and especially the students. Now every time the kids don't like something, they immediately call their parents to come to school and set the teachers or principals "straight". BTW, we have over 2000 students, most of them dressed appropriately that first day, until they could figure out the lay of the land. Now, the kids totally disregard the dress code and nothing is done about it. Again, I don't care what they wear, but the implied message is that one only has to follow the rules he/she chooses to follow. I actually feel sorry for the kids because they are going to have to pay the price when they get out in the real world.

[Fiona]

I actually feel sorry for the kids because they are going to have to pay the price when they get out in the real world.As will the kids they teach.... and so on and so on...
What goes up must come down
Spinnin' wheel got to go 'round
Talkin' 'bout your troubles it's a cryin' sin
Ride a painted pony let the spinnin' wheel spin
http://www.oldielyrics.com/lyrics/blood_sweat_tears/spinning_wheel.html

[Techie2000]

Oh I've seen parental politics play a huge role at my schools. Caught cheating in an AP class and risk losing your honor society membership? A call from mom will have things fixed in a jiffy. There is little integrity left behind much of that.

[ethics]

As a public school teacher close to retirement, I agree wholeheartedly with these posts. There are about 10 of us left in a faculty of 125 who are from the "old" school of earning one's grade and acting appropriately, and we argue constantly with the administration (all of them are youngsters) about most of their "feel good" ideas of education.

First of all, whether you agree or not, welcome to the forum. :)

[warlock56]

Personally I think spankings are stupid. Spaking lasts all of a few seconds and you may as well have given the kid an MMR immunization or flu shot instead. FWIW as a child, I was spanked, it didn't really do much, and later my parents changed over to this much despised "new age" stuff and by golly it worked.

You raise your kids however you see fit and I'll raise mine how I choose.

[Kangaroo]

There is a hue and cry for a return the the three Rs. However, this can lead to problems as well. Let's examine the Japanese school system, on of the most effective at teaching the basics. Students through high school are drilled incessantly in the three Rs. This gives Japan one of the highest literarcy and numeracy rates in the world, with one of the most difficult to learn languages in the world.

But, such is the concentration on these skills to the exculsion of all others that the typical Japanese is almost completely lacking in critical thinking skills. And it gets worse for those who enter the universities. University-bound students spend huge effort preparing for the entrance examinations. It is an enormous industry over there. This is because certain companies will only hire graduates of certain universities e. g. Toyota will only hire graduates of Tokyo University. These companies also don't really care what grades they receive while in university. Most students know this and simply coast through. The professors know this and pass everybody.

Thus, you have university graduates who are really lacking in critical thinking skills, but can wipe the floor with most others in the world with memorized facts, mathmatics, and literacy.

This is a big factor in why Japan has been in a recession for 15 years. They don't have any ideas on how to get out of it.

[Steve]

That's the extreme at the other end of the spectrum, though, Kangaroo. Somewhere between the educational practices of the U.S. and Japan is a happy medium.

I think the solution in the U.S. is quite simple, really: hold students accountable to real standards. Forget about curve grading, forget about social promotion, forget about grade inflation. Use the cirricula in place, now, and hold teachers accountable for enforcing real standards. That, alone, will do much to correct the problems in the U.S.