Before Saving Private Ryan

[ethics]

There was <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00005Q4DF/qid=/sr=/ref=cm_lm_asin/104-9317868-3661533?v=glance">Come and See</a>.

Elem Klimov's Come And See is perhaps the ultimate WWII film.

This savage and lyrical fever dream of death, rage and terror experienced through young eyes is a virtual primer for the subsequent, similarly psychedelic intensity of Terrence Malick's "The thin Red Line" and Spielberg's "Saving Private Ryan," Klimov's elegant, harrowing union of unflinching ferocity and dreamlike clarity moved "Empire of the Sun" author J.G. Ballard to declare Come And See the greatest war film ever made.

Time Out New York agreed, saying "Come And See's nimble balance of the sordid with the elegiac makes Peckinpah's 'Cross of Iron' seem like 'Newsies.'


Brief summary of what the movie is about:

When young Florya willingly joins a group of Partisans fighting the Nazis in Byelorussia, USSR, he little suspects that he is plunging through the looking glass. Separated from his comrades during a paratroop attack and struck deaf by German artillery, Florya - in the company of Glascha, a beguiling peasant girl - wanders a battle-scorched Russian purgatory of prehistoric forests and man-made slaughter.

Florya's journey takes him and us through a gallery of exquisitely poetic imagery and brutal human atrocity. Unlike traditional war films, Come And See never stoops to convenient heroic catharsis or genre movie narrative symmetry. Images of a beautiful girl's impromptu dance in the rain and an SS unit's spontaneous, self-congratulatory applause at their own butchery haunt with equal power. More than any other war film, Come And See unites the powerful truths and inescapable dilemmas that lurk behind both the raptures of youth and the horrors of war.

I am excited that more and more of these films are being made in to DVD's with English subtitles. I saw this when I was over Ukraine in 1994, it still haunts me.

[aedumo]

can i get it at a blockbuster or the like?

[ethics]

Not sure how vast (or flexible) your BB is, man. I can send you my copy if you wish as a lender. Just PM me your address.

[ShinyTop]

It is available on Netflix, I just added it to my list.

[ethics]

It is available on Netflix, I just added it to my list.


Wow. Talk about progressive. Kudos to Netflix.

[RetFireCapt]

I'm fascinated with what went on in the Eastern Front. Thanks for the mention Leon. I'm on it.

In return, I'd like to recommend a book Leon. It's The Forgotten Soldier by Guy Sajer. Riveting.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1574882864/qid=1108176736/sr=2-1/ref=pd_ka_b_2_1/104-7584980-4000714

[ethics]

Thanks man! Just ordered it. :)

[RetFireCapt]

Leon, there are many books read by me, but few fall into the category of "wishing it would never end". This is one. There are places you will want to take a nice hot shower after reading, but that just adds to the brilliance. You won't regret your purchase.

[ethics]

I am sure I won't. Thanks very much for the suggestion.

[Colin]

I am sure I won't. Thanks very much for the suggestion.
Add my voice to those recommending Guy Sajer's "The Forgotten Soldier". It is a beautiful and at the same terrifyingly honest account. The author truly succeeds at putting you in his shoes. You can almost feel the horrors he bears witness to.

Many thanks for the film recommendation too, Leon. I'll try to watch it ASAP.

I am, personally, amazed at the lack of even basic knowledge in American society about the true scope and nature of the Russo-German war. It seems like too many of our history books begin with Pearl Harbor and in no more than one page turn you are at D-Day.

[ethics]

I really can't blame Americans though. The war has not touched them the way it has the Germans, the Poles, Russians, Brits, etc...

Think about this. You have a home in North Carolina (for argument's sake). It's a nice neighborhood, trees, well groomed grass, kids are playing everywhere. Life is a bit toough but everyone (family, friends) including your neighbors are there to lift you up.

One day, you hear over the radio/tv in one ominous voice (<a href="http://www.vor.ru/English/River/river_048.html">Yuri Levitan</a>) tell you that, "today, the great country of America was attacked, on our soil by the (for argument's sake) Chinese forces. Obviously, young and old go to war. After a few years of pure hell you manage to live, only to come back to your community with a big bomb hole in place of where your house stood. The entire neighborhood looks the same way. Your wife and kids are no where to be found. You are then told they were inside the house when the bombing occurred.

I don't know ANY Soviets whose lives were NOT directly touched. WWII was part of every soul in those borders. I can't find a similar analogy for America though. I guess Pearl Harbor but for 6 long hellish years.

[Coot]

The Civil War was somewhat similar, the death toll and pillaging was staggering, considering the population at the time. It's relevance in terms of the makeup of the country today, is ameliorated as there are a lot more Americans for whom that war holds little or no relevancy...other than historical reference.

[ethics]

The Civil War was somewhat similar, the death toll and pillaging was staggering, considering the population at the time. It's relevance in terms of the makeup of the country today, is ameliorated as there are a lot more Americans for whom that war holds little or no relevancy...other than historical reference.


AH! And see how prevalent, deep, emotional, and dear the Civil War is to Americans? Now think of how the war were to have been touched by your father, grandfather (close in time) and you will begin to understand just how deep the scars go. :)

[Colin]

I don't know ANY Soviets whose lives were NOT directly touched. WWII was part of every soul in those borders. I can't find a similar analogy for America though. I guess Pearl Harbor but for 6 long hellish years.
True, true… I guess for me the concern really lies in the fact that most Americans seem to be largely ignorant of the importance Russia played in the ultimate outcome of WWII. There seems to be a prevailing view that we won the war in Europe single-handedly.

I don't want to understate the effort put forth by the Western Allies. The Western front was absolutely critical to the overall war effort, but it seems to me that Hitler was ultimately broken in Stalingrad, Kursk, etc. and not Normandy.

[ShinyTop]

The sum of what it takes to win a war is the very thing that allows all victorious nations, all branches of the service to claim the most important part in the victory. I will grant in an instance the war fought on the eastern front was more brutal and ate more German divisions than in any other front. But the forces of the US, England, Australia, Canada, and South Africa were fighting a war of denying Germany the ability to make war. Those combined forces kept Germany from strategic materials while conducting bombing raids day and night that interrupted the production of war machines. The anti aircraft guns and aircraft moved to protect German cities were not in use on the Eastern front.

Additionally the western nations provided thousands of aircraft and other fighting material through the Murmansk convoys.


World War II was truly a world wide effort to defeat the Germans. And the aid and armies provided by the US were in addition to defeating the Japanese with some assistance from Australia and England.

I think the credit for victory in WWII can be shared. Only when national pride is given place over history do people decide their nation won it by themselves. Conduct and victory or defeat in war depends on an interlocking series of events and arms that makes simple answers as to who won and how they won fodder for forums like ours.

[RetFireCapt]

True, true… I guess for me the concern really lies in the fact that most Americans seem to be largely ignorant of the importance Russia played in the ultimate outcome of WWII. There seems to be a prevailing view that we won the war in Europe single-handedly.

Only amongst the historically ignorant. Even a cursory glance at the Eastern Front tells that without the Rodina bleeding the German war machine white, the assault on Festung Europa would have been years down the line, and magnitudes of order more costly.

[ethics]

I don't want to understate the effort put forth by the Western Allies. The Western front was absolutely critical to the overall war effort, but it seems to me that Hitler was ultimately broken in Stalingrad, Kursk, etc. and not Normandy.


I am reluctant as well because any one life sacrificed should be honored and rememembered. I will only add that Russia's war was not just Germany, my grandafather was an Admiral in the Soviet Navy fighting the Japanese in the Far East (Sea of Okhotsk).

[bear2005]

"I think the credit for victory in WWII can be shared..."

Being in Ireland, I saw a book called “WW II in pictures”, which was published in UK. According to that book all the most important battles of WW II took place somewhere in Africa and in the London’s sky… What, such a view - is it just an echo of the Cold War? Same as drunken Russians, wearing fur-caps in their spacecraft in the America’s pictured “Armageddon”?<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>

Excuse my poor English, but I just wanted to say that all the above you said is true, for instance that “…western nations provided thousands of aircraft and other fighting material through the Murmansk convoys…” or that “…forces of the US, England, Australia, Canada, and South Africa were fighting a war of denying Germany the ability to make war…” Same true as the fact that the western nations, like England and France could easily prevent this war from happening at all but refused to protect Poland or Czech, flirting with Hitler in a hope to gain something for themselves. That Russians and Ukrainians have been dying for long 4 years, fighting for their lands and for freedom of Europe, asking the westerns for help. But they got help only in 1944, after millions of lives were lost. You see, there is a big difference in supplying a cannon meat and supplying military aircrafts “through the Murmansk convoys”. I’m taking off my hat in memory of all American and British soldiers who lost their lives 60 years ago. But than again, even D-day happened mostly due to necessity (according to western leaders) to prevent Russians to go too far in Europe. American soldiers have been fighting fascists but Mr. Roosevelt and Mr. Churchill have been fighting Soviets at those times, sorry. And Mr. Allen Dallas in 1945 was trying to strike a bargain with Nazi behind Russian’s backs to stop the war, just from one side. So you are right, we can share the credits. All 27,000,000 of the killed Soviet soldiers, children, old men and old women would love to give a lot of credits to the publishers of “War II in pictures” and similar materials …<o:p></o:p>

[ethics]

I saw this movie practically when it came out. I just saw it again with English Subtitles.

Few things for the Americans who are not used to watching Russian films.

1. Russian directors do not care if their film goes over 4 hours. There are vast amount of "dead space" in which they try to add to the feeling, the ambience, and the only way to do that is to have you stare at a scene for a longer periods of time. It's not a BAD thing but it is quite different to what you folks are used to today.

2. Klimov's take here was more of a David Lynch type of imagery rather than Spielberg. There's too much audio overflow at times, and even my eyes would hurt from seeing some things--and I don't mean the scenes at the end of the movie.

3. English subtitles do not (I have yet to see a film or a book that does) do this movie justice. The fact that each and everyone speaks different dialect--not just Russian but Ukrainian as well as Belorussian is never hinted upon. You never experience someone switching their language to appease the others and vice versa. The main character does NOT speak Russian but true BeloRussian dialect with plenty of Ukrainian words thrown in for good measure.

4. Finally, and without spoiling the plot, what the Germans (the specifics of this movie) did was common and not just in Belorussian--although BR took a heavy brunt of this because this is where the Germans thought they had all the time in the world.

5. Sean Penn's commentary at the end just proves what a thickheaded, ignorant cluster#*@ he is. In special features of the DVD there's a quote from him that reads:

Several years ago I got a call from my father telling me to drop whatever I was doing and make my way over to the UCLA campus. One of the halls was putting on a showing of a Russian movie, by a director named Klimov, and it was not to be missed.

A veteran of some thirty-six missions over Berlin during WWII, my dad had never been one to embrace filmdom's history of war, feeling either their inaccuracies or appalled by the common romantic view of battle. This film, he said, was a great portrait of <b>and against war</b>.

I am glad I made it over there that day because what I saw will stay with me forever

Ok Sean, let me tell you a few things about what you've missed. You've missed the fact that no one escaped untouched in FSU, NO ONE. This film <i>UNDERLINES</i> that but in your zeal to be an anti-war ignorant peacenik you would have been one of the boys fried in a barn while holding your hand in a triumphant peace sign.

I have a feeling your DAD got it, no soldier -- especially a veteran of war, any war--is PRO-war. When he said it was against war because it portrays war like rare amount of films do, he meant just that.

Sean, the Russian people didn't decide to be IN any war. They had nothing to begin with but at least they had their families. The Germans brought the war to their homes and then burned them while the women and children screamed inside.

Peace, Sean.

<img src="http://www.kolardesign.com/cards/200peacesign.jpg">