Did God drown sinners in tsunami?

[Doctor Dan]

The last time there was flooding on this scale the holy texts clearly stated it was punishment from God for a wicked population.

IMO we should be exploiting this angle for all its worth.

- Dan

[MorWired]

The last time there was flooding on this scale the holy texts clearly stated it was punishment from God for a wicked population.IMO we should be exploiting this angle for all its worth.Unfortunately, it appears that won't work. The news had a report of some of the villages that were completely devastated, and the only things left standing, in village after village, were mosques. Of course they were the only well-constructed buildings at these sites, but a particularly religious person might choose to see this as a "sign" of god's approval. :(

[LissaKay]

And in Thailand, several Buddha statues were left standing amidst massive destruction ....

[cmhbob]

Unfortunately, it appears that won't work. The news had a report of some of the villages that were completely devastated, and the only things left standing, in village after village, were mosques. Of course they were the only well-constructed buildings at these sites, but a particularly religious person might choose to see this as a "sign" of god's approval. :(
And aside from anything else, if you read the Genesis story of the Great Flood, (Genesis 6-9) you'll see that God promised Noah that He would never again use a flood to destroy the earth Gen 9:15. (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%209:15;&version=31;)

[MorWired]

And aside from anything else, if you read the Genesis story of the Great Flood, (Genesis 6-9) you'll see that God promised Noah that He would never again use a flood to destroy the earth Gen 9:15. (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%209:15;&version=31;)Correct. Hence the rainbow. Is the Pentateuch part of Islamic scripture as well?

[Doctor Dan]

And aside from anything else, if you read the Genesis story of the Great Flood, (Genesis 6-9) you'll see that God promised Noah that He would never again use a flood to destroy the earth

Perhaps God changed his/her/its mind... or it could simply be a matter of semantics: "I didn't use a flood, I used an earthquake."

:P

- Dan

[Advocat]

Correct. Hence the rainbow. Is the Pentateuch part of Islamic scripture as well?

Not directly, but they believe all Old Testament prophets were men of truth. Therefore it's accepted, but not "gospel" as such, being overridden by the Koran.

21 And, verily, ye have a lesson in the cattle; we give you to drink of what is in their bellies; and ye have therein many advantages, and of them ye eat, 22 and on them and on ships ye are borne! 23 We sent Noah unto his people, and he said, ‘O my people! worship God, ye have no god-but Him; do ye then not fear?’ 24 Said the chiefs of those who misbelieved among his people, ‘This is nothing but a mortal like yourselves who wishes to have preference over you, and had God pleased He would have sent angels; we have not heard of this amongst our fathers of yore: 25 he is nothing but a man possessed; let him bide then for a season.’ 26 Said he, ‘Help me, for they call me liar!’

27 And we inspired him, ‘Make the ark under our eyes and inspiration; and when the oven boils over, 28 conduct into it of every kind two, with thy family, except him of them against whom the word "has passed; and do not address me for those who do wrong, verily, they are to be drowned!

29 ‘But when thou art settled, thou and those with thee in the ark, say, "Praise belongs to God, who saved us from the unjust people!" 30 ‘And say, "My Lord! make me to alight in a blessed alighting-place, for Thou art the best of those who cause men to alight!"’ 31 Verily, in that this is a sign, and, verily, we were trying them.

So there's no direct promise of no more floods.

Now back to our regularly scheduled topic ;)

[Steve]

Split from discussion of disaster.

[SixofNine]

Perhaps God changed his/her/its mind... or it could simply be a matter of semantics: "I didn't use a flood, I used an earthquake."

Oh no, a Clinton-esque God.

Brian

[archidante]

IMO we should be exploiting this angle for all its worth.

- Dan Please put me on record here as saying that I used the Biblical example as a refudiation of religious perspective-"that these things are caused by Dieties in response to human evil." Rainbows are caused by a refraction of light and have always existed in the hundreds of millions of years before the first protozoa squirmed in the muddy shorelines on ancient Earth. But I can't prove that, because I don't have a time machine, just like I can't prove human sentience ends with the end of our lives and we don't get a second chance to experience sentience and effect the universe.

American firecodes were developed and effected largely after the Triangle shirt company disaster where a large number of young women were forced to jump to their deaths from a high window during a fire. The firecodes have saved millions of lives over the dacades, here and across the globe since they provided the model for other nations fire codes. In a sad but true way those women who lost thier lives that day provided the tragic impetus for people to get their act together and do the right thing, reorganizing the laws, rethinking things and setting things right for the future.

Humanity stands in a simaler situation today-our space program is a joke while it's quite clear an asteroid could make any previous disaster look small by comparision. Hundreds of millions of people are moment away from horrible death at any given moment to nuclear terrorism motivated by religious fanatics. Notice that the mosques in the recent tragedy stood strong while homes were swept away. Humanity remains misfocused as it was it the time of the Pharohs-resources to build good religous structures while things like homes and schools are ramshackle.

[Fiona]

Reading the title of this thread, I thought it was a joke. Now I see it was spawned from a serious thread but does still seem to be lighthearted. I hope. :rolleyes:

[Piobaireachd]

Oh no, a Clinton-esque God.

Brian
It all depends on what your definition of cataclysm is.

[joseftu]

Unfortunately, although Dan probably meant it light-heartedly, there are many who are saying this, and who do not mean it light-heartedly at all.

Rabbi Avi Shafran (http://www.beliefnet.com/story/158/story_15882.html), for example, sees the tsunami and all the terrible death and destruction as "a wake-up call for Jews." (!!) In his view, all those people suffered and died just to give Jews a message that we should be more observant, more mindful of "our responsibility to use the power of speech carefully and properly; on being more observant of the Sabbath and holidays, of kashrut and all the laws of the Torah; on dedicating more time to its study."

In other words, it wasn't God drowning sinners...it was God drowning completely innocent people, people who were not even required to follow the commandments, just to remind Jews that we should follow the commandments.

Feh.

I hope I don't need to say how forcefully I reject this interpretation.

[Fiona]

Oh no- I realize SOME people actually think this way. I shudder to think any of them are here... biased? ME? YEP!

[MorWired]

I hope I don't need to say how forcefully I reject this interpretation.Well, unfortunately the people who like to spin these kinds of thngs have plenty of fodder, no matter their religion. The Muslims can claim that the standing mosques are proof of god's approval. The Christians can claim this to be part of the end days, and a call to faith and renewed evangelism. And your Rabbi has already given his spin. I don't know what Buddhists would want to spin, if anything at all, but a situation like this gives everyone wide berth.

Wouldn't it be nice if we could keep religion and politics out of this, and simply be citizens of the same planet, providing help and comfort where needed? I know, I know, just send me to my nice rubber room ... where's my straitjacket when I really need it?

[Piobaireachd]

I don't think anything on the scale of the tsunami should be interpreted as anything except mother nature giving us a wake up call. In other words, don't get too cocky, there is something bigger than us out there.

[Frodo Lives]

Then there is evil crap like this:

[MorWired]

Then there is evil crap like this:Niiice. As I was saying, the nutbars of the world will be drawn to this like flies to [choose your nasty].

These people are by no means "normal" Baptists, hell, they're not even normal human beings. I wouldn't be surprised for Baptists to interpret the tsunami as a sign from god, but no rational people of any religion would find pleasure in this, no matter how steeped in fundamentalism. The most important tenet of Christianity as it pertains to dealing with others is the Golden Rule -- there is no room for finding pleasure in the suffering and deaths of others in that.

Unfortunately, the nutbars are more vocal than the rational majority -- we've probably only just begun to witness the depths to which people will sink in the name of their twisted concept of their religions.

[cdw]

Takes all kinds, eh?

[joseftu]

And your Rabbi has already given his spin.Whoa there! Not my Rabbi! (She'd never say anything like that!)
(I know what you meant!)

There are plenty of nutbars, that's for sure. Similar to the ones Frodo posted, I saw a Saudi nutbar making the same argument...the gays caused the tsunami.

Idiotic, hateful, dangerous, no matter where it comes from.

[archidante]

Whoa there! Not my Rabbi! (She'd never say anything like that!)
(I know what you meant!)

There are plenty of nutbars, that's for sure. Similar to the ones Frodo posted, I saw a Saudi nutbar making the same argument...the gays caused the tsunami.

Idiotic, hateful, dangerous, no matter where it comes from.
Well, at least us science boy atheist types don't blame little old human beings and vengeful gods for these disasters. Radiant heat. Forces of physics; not even a mother nature. Its the same physics that lets light in your eyes as you enjoy an impressionist painting or sends a rush a chemicals through your brain when you're in love. The question isn't which lifestyle/religion/ethnic group/ political slant caused the disaster-it was an earthquake. The only lessons to learn is how to prepare for it, and how to prepare for after it.
Relgious prejudices will not prevent it. Here's one from an a sometimes clumsy foot in mouth non-believer; cherish everybody's life like it was your own, and use every bit of science, thought, ability and prepartion to protect those lives. If there is a God (gods) whatever, maybe/he/it/she/they would respect us/forgive us/enlighten us more if we just concentrated on loving, tolerating, and uplifting each others lives here and now and left the judgement/ assesment part to them. If we can't love one another, how can we expect to love "God"? Maybe it would be more acurate to call me agnostic, for I haven't completely ruled out any possibility. I just can't see how all these people closing their minds with religous dogma can possibly do a bit of good anywhere.
When I made this comment that started this thread I wasn't expecting to reopen every religious war ever fought. I just wanted to point out that less talk about dogma and more talk about engineering might keep more people alive in the general human scheme of things. In retrospect, I put that, and another of other points I was trying to make, very poorly. But since religion has been introduced by me into the who disaster topic, I can only quote one guy I used to hold in very high esteem.

Love thy neighbor as thyself, and love God with all thy heart and all thy soul and all thy might.


Please note the prerequisite to the loving God part.

[joseftu]

When I made this comment that started this thread I wasn't expecting to reopen every religious war ever fought. I just wanted to point out that less talk about dogma and more talk about engineering might keep more people alive in the general human scheme of things. In retrospect, I put that, and another of other points I was trying to make, very poorly. I wasn't really following the original thread, but I don't think you did so badly. It's touchy ground, but it's bound to come up.
But since religion has been introduced by me into the who disaster topic, I can only quote one guy I used to hold in very high esteem.

Love thy neighbor as thyself, and love God with all thy heart and all thy soul and all thy might.I know the guy who said the first part (well-deserving of esteem, certainly--although he wasn't the first to say it), but the second is from Deuteronomy--much harder to identify the guy! ;)

[ditch]

The religious overtones to the disaster are real according to some "religious leaders".
Its unfortunate but not surprising that the issue of God's will arises. (http://smh.com.au/articles/2005/01/03/1104601275300.html)

Anglican Dean of Sydney, Phillip Jensen, triggered the debate after saying disasters were part of God's warning that judgment was imminent.

It's irresponsible scaremongering intended to take advantage of the disaster to further their religious interests and helps no one.

Fortunately there are some with a more down to earth attitude.

The dean of St Mary's Cathedral, Neil Brown, has criticised religious leaders who say the tsunami disaster is the will of God.

At a Mass dedicated to victims of the tsunami, Father Brown told a congregation at St Mary's yesterday that humans could not know the will of God. "It [that such disasters are God's will] is not a Catholic belief, and it's a rather horrible belief when you begin to think about it," he said. The Indonesian Catholic Community Choir sang at the Mass, and special prayers were said for Indonesian victims of the tragedy.

[Steve]

For the record, I'm solely responsible for the title of this thread and in no way whatsoever intend it to be a claim of any sort to that effect. I just figured it would be an attention-getter.

[Sir Joseph]

Unfortunately, although Dan probably meant it light-heartedly, there are many who are saying this, and who do not mean it light-heartedly at all.

Rabbi Avi Shafran (http://www.beliefnet.com/story/158/story_15882.html), for example, sees the tsunami and all the terrible death and destruction as "a wake-up call for Jews." (!!) In his view, all those people suffered and died just to give Jews a message that we should be more observant, more mindful of "our responsibility to use the power of speech carefully and properly; on being more observant of the Sabbath and holidays, of kashrut and all the laws of the Torah; on dedicating more time to its study."

In other words, it wasn't God drowning sinners...it was God drowning completely innocent people, people who were not even required to follow the commandments, just to remind Jews that we should follow the commandments.

Feh.

I hope I don't need to say how forcefully I reject this interpretation.Nice selective reading Joe.

[joseftu]

That's why I linked to the whole essay. You can see for yourself what he said, and you can accept or reject it for yourself. Nothing selective about it. I don't think I misrepresented his point at all.

I think he has dangerous and reprehensible ideas. He's a fundamentalist. To be fair, he thinks that non-fundamentalist Jews (like me) are even more dangerous--in fact, we're evil, and bound to disappear! http://www.vtc.net/~cdgoldin/r'avi/jewthink18.htm

[archidante]

Unfortunately, it appears that won't work. The news had a report of some of the villages that were completely devastated, and the only things left standing, in village after village, were mosques. Of course they were the only well-constructed buildings at these sites, but a particularly religious person might choose to see this as a "sign" of god's approval. :(
They recently tore down the Sands hotel in Vegas. Built by the mob, it was heavily overbuilt with tons of extra steel and concrete. The demolition team was amazed, the mob had built it to withstand....an attack. Not comparing religious structures to the mob. I mean what religion threatens to punish you if you don't do it their way? Oh yeah, (Hell!)most of them. And what religions demand money...er, uh...Have lavish buildings....establish rules that are not subject to debate or democratic process-hey, religion IS just like the mob!

Insurance companies need to stop calling indiscriminate violent destructive natural events "Acts of God." It only encourages the mob, er the Religions, to abuse the events to mess with people minds. I'm sure almighty God, if he wanted to punish the wicked, could do it more selectively than drowning little old ladies and babies en masse.

[Sir Joseph]

That's why I linked to the whole essay. You can see for yourself what he said, and you can accept or reject it for yourself. Nothing selective about it. I don't think I misrepresented his point at all.

I think he has dangerous and reprehensible ideas. He's a fundamentalist. To be fair, he thinks that non-fundamentalist Jews (like me) are even more dangerous--in fact, we're evil, and bound to disappear! http://www.vtc.net/~cdgoldin/r'avi/jewthink18.htmIn other words, if you're an Orthodox Jew you're a fundamentalist? I understant you have biases and other feelings but you are supposedly an educated fellow. I read the article you linked to and did not see what you saw.

[Piobaireachd]

They recently tore down the Sands hotel in Vegas. Built by the mob, it was heavily overbuilt with tons of extra steel and concrete. The demolition team was amazed, the mob had built it to withstand....an attack. Not comparing religious structures to the mob. I mean what religion threatens to punish you if you don't do it their way? Oh yeah, (Hell!)most of them. And what religions demand money...er, uh...Have lavish buildings....establish rules that are not subject to debate or democratic process-hey, religion IS just like the mob!

Insurance companies need to stop calling indiscriminate violent destructive natural events "Acts of God." It only encourages the mob, er the Religions, to abuse the events to mess with people minds. I'm sure almighty God, if he wanted to punish the wicked, could do it more selectively than drowning little old ladies and babies en masse.
I think what we're doing is confusing God with religion. Religion was created by man; not by God. I have a real problem with religion and churches, but not with "God" (it doesn't matter what man thinks "God" is, it's the same entity anyway).

I'm also a science and math geek, but I still believe in something bigger than us. Can you find god in a mathematic equation? Sometimes I believe you can...

The term "Acts of God" are just a convenient way of saying "incidents that we have no control over".

[joseftu]

Not all Orthodox Jews are fundamentalists, obviously. But this guy is. He says quite clearly (I don't know how you could have not seen it!) that the tsunami should be seen as a message to Jews. He says God sent the disaster in order to tell Jews to repent and behave better.

In his book he classifies reform and conservative Jews as min or apikoros. He says that the Earth is 6,000 years old. He says that every word of the Torah is literal truth. That's fundamentalism, by definition.

Not all Orthodox Jews believe these things--but those who do, are fundamentalists. Those who don't, according to Rabbi Shafran, are not real Jews at all. (That's another mark of fundamentalism, by the way).

[Sir Joseph]

It wasn't sent as a message to Jews, but since it obviously was sent we, as Jews should take note of it and strengthen our observance.
I don't know why you have something wrong with him calling a Reform or Conservative Jew a min or apikores, by definition, they are. If someone believes the Earth is around 6,000 years old, that makes them a fundamentalist?

Everything you mentioned in your second "paragraph" is belived by all practicing Jews, those that don't believe it are not observant, Orthodox, practicing, etc.

Lastly, Rabbi Shafran is just a PR guy for an organization, he is not a rabbi whom you would "rabbi-talk" with.
Also, he doesn't call the Reform or Conservative Jew evil, he calls the movements evil, that is something that any english student, let alone teacher, would have picked up.
He goes into more detail over here: http://www.jewishamerica.com/ja/features/ConLie.cfm

[joseftu]

It wasn't sent as a message to Jews, but since it obviously was sent we, as Jews should take note of it and strengthen our observance.
I don't know why you have something wrong with him calling a Reform or Conservative Jew a min or apikores, by definition, they are. No, check the definition again.

If someone believes the Earth is around 6,000 years old, that makes them a fundamentalist?
If someone believes the Torah is literal truth, in every word, yes, that makes them a fundamentalist. That's what fundamentalist means.

Everything you mentioned in your second "paragraph" is belived by all practicing Jews, those that don't believe it are not observant, Orthodox, practicing, etc.
You agree with Shafran, then. I don't. There are many observant, Orthodox, practicing Jews who don't believe all those things. You and Shafran would certainly not call them observant or practicing or Orthodox--but they would certainly call themselves that.

This is really off the topic of this thread, though, at this point--and I doubt it's very interesting to anyone except you and me. So I'll let it be.

[joseftu]

Also, he doesn't call the Reform or Conservative Jew evil, he calls the movements evil, that is something that any english student, let alone teacher, would have picked up.
He goes into more detail over here: http://www.jewishamerica.com/ja/features/ConLie.cfmYou added that while I was posting, so I'll just give it one quick response, since it seems called for.

Here's what he said about Conservative and Reform Jews (and their "movements") in the link I posted:

These man-made "religions" are the most destructive forces in the history of the Jewish people and all those who seek to spread their noxious heresies are mesisim, instigators whose aim is to lead astray the masses. They are the followers of Korach, the Sadducees and the Karaites. And just as these ancient-day "reform" movements vanished from the stage of Jewish history, so too will their modern heirs fall, as will eventually all evil.
If he wants to draw the distinction, and back off from that statement, as he seems to do in the link you posted, good for him. I guess it's better to be a dupe of an evil movement than to be evil yourself, but you'll forgive me if I don't really enjoy the compassion in that backing off.

[MorWired]

If someone believes the Earth is around 6,000 years old, that makes them a fundamentalist?I think the problem here is your take on the word "fundamentalist" -- in this age of terrorism it has taken on an undeserved stigma, when what is really meant is "extremist."

As Joe pointed out, anyone who believes that their sacred writings are word-for-word literal and true is a "fundamentalist." The are millions and millions of good people who are Baptists and other evangelical denominations who are Christian fundamentalists. That doesn't make them bad or crazy or radical or anything negative, it only characterizes the basic tenets of their beliefs. There are possibly a few thousands wackos (like the "Baptist" group whose document was posted somehwere around here), who are off their collective beam, and who in no way represent the religion that they twist -- those are extremists. (That's why I pointed out the difference in my earlier post, not wanting people unfamiliar with Baptists to believe that this hateful drivel was in any way representative of what Baptists actually believe and stand for.)

I've used Christianity and Baptists as an example only because that's what I'm most familiar with, but the same goes for fundamentalist/extremist Muslims, and, as Joe is pointing out, fundamentalist/extremist Jews.

"Fundamentalist" is NOT a pejorative term, but it has been mistakenly swept up as part and parcel of what is bad with religion.

[Sir Joseph]

You added that while I was posting, so I'll just give it one quick response, since it seems called for.

Here's what he said about Conservative and Reform Jews (and their "movements") in the link I posted:
If he wants to draw the distinction, and back off from that statement, as he seems to do in the link you posted, good for him. I guess it's better to be a dupe of an evil movement than to be evil yourself, but you'll forgive me if I don't really enjoy the compassion in that backing off.He never called Reform or Conservative Jews evil, perhaps the movement and those spreading it, but not the individual members.

[Doctor Dan]

For the record, I'm solely responsible for the title of this thread and in no way whatsoever intend it to be a claim of any sort to that effect. I just figured it would be an attention-getter.

Needless to say, I am quite amused that I'm attributed as being the OP of this thread.

rofl

- Dan

[Stiofán]

Hitting the funny gas again before posting Doc? You know it's really not fair if we all can't share. ;)

[ravital]

Feh.

I hope I don't need to say how forcefully I reject this interpretation.
Feh is right. I'm sure you remember Fallwell calling AIDS a punishment from God. Same difference, nothing new.

[joseftu]

Yes, I remember. He said the same thing about 9/11, I believe.

Feh.

[RetFireCapt]

I just heard an interview wherein Stern questioned the "God Hates Fags" lady. She's associated with that wacko church down south that is saying the tsunamis were sent by God to punish the Swedes for jailing some wacko anti-gay preacher. This outfit is rejoicing in the death of the Swedes. She also said that everone who died in the tragedy was killed by God. She claimed there were no innocent deaths because of the child prostitution trade in those parts.

All I can say to this is, see my sig.