About the Afghanistan Elections

[Suchaknight]

I was watching news footage of the elections in Afghanistan yesterday. They featured long lines of women waiting to vote, for the first time in their lives, and interviews with some of them where the unanimous opinion was how wonderful it was that they were finally getting some rights, etc.

This is all well and good, but the thing that struck me as odd was that one of these veiled women was so ecstatic that she whipped out her voter's registration card to show the reporter, and it had her photo on it WITHOUT any veil or face covering. Well, it made me laugh because I thought back to that woman (who was a convert to Islam) in Florida who sued the state because they wanted her to be photographed similarly for her driver's license, and she felt that that would infringe on her rights to practice her religion. Guess the PC movement has not hit Afghanistan yet, eh?

[ethics]

Isn't that ironic? :)

[efuseakay]

I was watching news footage of the elections in Afghanistan yesterday. They featured long lines of women waiting to vote, for the first time in their lives, and interviews with some of them where the unanimous opinion was how wonderful it was that they were finally getting some rights, etc.

This is all well and good, but the thing that struck me as odd was that one of these veiled women was so ecstatic that she whipped out her voter's registration card to show the reporter, and it had her photo on it WITHOUT any veil or face covering. Well, it made me laugh because I thought back to that woman (who was a convert to Islam) in Florida who sued the state because they wanted her to be photographed similarly for her driver's license, and she felt that that would infringe on her rights to practice her religion. Guess the PC movement has not hit Afghanistan yet, eh?

Give it 200 years and I am sure the PC movement will make its way over there... ;)

[LissaKay]

I grabbed a few pictures from the Afghan elections. We take our right to vote for our government representatives way too much for granted. It is hard for us to fathom the meaning this has for the people of Afghanistan.

See the pics here in a slideshow (http://www.flickr.com/photos/lissakay/tags/afghan/show/)

[Misu]

That's freaking amazing. Those pics on Lissa's slideshow shows people submitting their paper votes into tupperware containers, which are then carried off by PACK MULE.

And then people in this country complain that they don't vote because of whatever retarded reason, such as their vote doesn't really count or that it takes too long to vote. The lines in those pics looked like they were for HOURS.

Americans really are spoiled, and I am reminded of that fact everytime I see things like that. I'm glad they're voting, it's been a long time coming.

[Pyrion]

such as their vote doesn't really count

I'm curious. What voting system is Afghanistan using?

[cdw]

There is a picture of the ballot in the Middle East forum. The title has something to do with protection. It's a paper ballot, looks like a tablet almost, with all the candidates along with their picture.

[ethics]

What amazes me is that how fast and intensive the Afghans have grabbed this new right to them. It takes decades, even a lifetime for other countries/people to grasp this and yet the Afghans? Wow.

I am in the mind that many people deserve the government they get, this can't be more true for Afghans than it is.

[Copzilla]

Indeed, they've undergone a transformation that they appreciate, it seems.

The terrific thing about this is that once the roots of democratic representation take hold, there's no turning back. I don't see the people ever allowing a Taliban type government again.

[cdw]

What amazes me is that how fast and intensive the Afghans have grabbed this new right to them. It takes decades, even a lifetime for other countries/people to grasp this and yet the Afghans? Wow.

I am in the mind that many people deserve the government they get, this can't be more true for Afghans than it is.

Oh yee of little faith.


:cool:

[archidante]

What amazes me is that how fast and intensive the Afghans have grabbed this new right to them. It takes decades, even a lifetime for other countries/people to grasp this and yet the Afghans? Wow.

I am in the mind that many people deserve the government they get, this can't be more true for Afghans than it is.
Maybe because they've had such an intense negative experience with the taliban...representative government really seems like a good thing.

[Advocat]

Indeed, they've undergone a transformation that they appreciate, it seems.

The terrific thing about this is that once the roots of democratic representation take hold, there's no turning back. I don't see the people ever allowing a Taliban type government again.

I agree, it's very unlikely the people of Afghanistan will ever vote a Taliban-like government to rule over them. It's good to see the people take to the concepts so quickly. But I do have concerns for the future...

I don't think there's ever been a country in history whose people, when told they would have a chance to elect their leaders, turned around and refused it... well, there may be one or two monarchies where that happened, but I can't remember any offhand.

To my mind, a stable democracy has -- oddly -- less to do with the people being given the right to vote, than with the establishment of the rule of law and ethics controling those who would be elected; avoiding bribery, corruption, vote buying and fixing, conspiracy to dominate, etc.

A number of countries around the globe, from South America to Asia and the Middle East, have "democracies" where the populace gets to vote, but the results are bought, fixed/pre-arranged, or just outright ignored by the ruling party/person. Heck, even Saddam and N. Korea's "Dear Leader" held sham elections, just for appearances sake.

I'm going to watch Afghanistan and keep my fingers crossed they'll take the example the governments of the Coalition forces. Time will tell...

[cdw]

Time will tell..

Yep, that is all they need. Time. Too cool! :)

[ethics]

Oh Advocat, no need to remind me of caution. I am the pessimist on the Afghani affairs but they continue to surprise me. First, I never thought that they would agree on anything, they did agree on many things, Democracy being one of the more important ones.

Then I thought that whole elections would be FUBAR. They again proved me wrong.

Don't get me wrong, folks, I HOPE I am wrong with every bone in my body. And I hope the Afghani will continue to surprise me. They have just such a long way to go still. :(

[bruzzes]

The ironic thing about this process is that Afghanistan was considered the most backward and tribal of all the nations.

Funny how democracy may work here, yet fail in Russia.

[X Man]

Yes, after billions of US dollars, and thousands of "smart-bombs", Afghanistan has managed to hold elections. An election for "The MAYOR, of Kabul". So what?

Afghanistan is rapidly descending into a failed narco-terrorist state. Nearly all of Afghanistan's economy is based on opium/heroin and warlords control in excess of 90% of the country.

Yes, this is just flipping fantastic.

Am I surprised that there wasn't more violence and disturbance of this "democratic election"? No, far from it. Why would the warlords and the remnants of the Taliban bother to disrupt an election that didn't mean squat in the first place? They wouldn't. No, the real leaders in Afghanistan are ecstatic with the new status quo. Unfettered opium trade, to the tune of billions. A new record crop of opium as a matter of fact. Up as much as 40% from last years $2.5 billion dollars worth.

Bush's shinning success in Afghanistan, the road-map for the way we hope Iraq will turn out. Please. I think I may just puke.

[Shake]

I believe they are going in the right direction. While I will admit that there are still some major problems such as the Opium trade and Al Qaeda, I still think the election was a big step from what Afghanistan use to be. Rome wasn't built in a day and neither will be the democracy of Afghanistan.

[cdw]

Are your words in italics because you are quoting a source? If so, please link it.

They just had an election for the president. I see who ever you are quoting or you yourself would like to reduce that to the mayor, but, that's incorrect.
The courts have been and continue to be reformed. Women are going to schools and voting. They are getting jobs. Women are in government. They, in addition to the opium crop, also had the most successful wheat crop they have ever had. They have just come out of a 4 year drought. Roads are being built. Businesses are slowly investing. Afghanis from here are going back and helping. There aren't any stadiums where people are routinely taken and shot while others sit around eating popcorn enjoying the 'show'.
I'm not sure what you are talking about.... 90% of the country. Can you explain what percentage of the country holds a substantial population?

And as stated above, while there are still problems, hell, we have them here and have been at it for a lot longer than Afghanistan, your refusal to see the progress that has been made and will continue to be made is disheartening. I can't understand those who decide it is somehow better to pick out the negatives and discount the positives, the hard work it took to get there, the hard work that is still going on and those that engage in that work. They are part of the crowd who said Afghanistan would never get as far as it has. 1/2 full or 1/2 empty? Oops, must not be working, after all, they've had a couple of years to get all this done!! rofl

[Sacchiridites]

Yes, after billions of US dollars, and thousands of "smart-bombs", Afghanistan has managed to hold elections. An election for "The MAYOR, of Kabul". So what?

Afghanistan is rapidly descending into a failed narco-terrorist state. Nearly all of Afghanistan's economy is based on opium/heroin and warlords control in excess of 90% of the country.

Yes, this is just flipping fantastic.

Am I surprised that there wasn't more violence and disturbance of this "democratic election"? No, far from it. Why would the warlords and the remnants of the Taliban bother to disrupt an election that didn't mean squat in the first place? They wouldn't. No, the real leaders in Afghanistan are ecstatic with the new status quo. Unfettered opium trade, to the tune of billions. A new record crop of opium as a matter of fact. Up as much as 40% from last years $2.5 billion dollars worth.

Bush's shinning success in Afghanistan, the road-map for the way we hope Iraq will turn out. Please. I think I may just puke.

Are you saying....it 'just doesn't sound right?' I may be getting a glimpse into what you're saying. But, I would like to hear more.

Somewhere on GA, didn't we JUST have a post on how the price of heroin has gone down lately? While heroin/opium/poppy trades have been quite open and flagrant in parts of Asia and Europe, I hope that it does not happen in the US as it has this area.

X man, you're not puking due to withdrawals, I hope. *I'm being silly....no offense intended. Don't think I've seen you around before. Welcome!

Cie
aka Sacchiridites

[X Man]

Are your words in italics because you are quoting a source? If so, please link it.

They just had an election for the president. I see who ever you are quoting or you yourself would like to reduce that to the mayor, but, that's incorrect.
The courts have been and continue to be reformed. Women are going to schools and voting. They are getting jobs. Women are in government. They, in addition to the opium crop, also had the most successful wheat crop they have ever had. They have just come out of a 4 year drought. Roads are being built. Businesses are slowly investing. Afghanis from here are going back and helping. There aren't any stadiums where people are routinely taken and shot while others sit around eating popcorn enjoying the 'show'.
I'm not sure what you are talking about.... 90% of the country. Can you explain what percentage of the country holds a substantial population?

And as stated above, while there are still problems, hell, we have them here and have been at it for a lot longer than Afghanistan, your refusal to see the progress that has been made and will continue to be made is disheartening. I can't understand those who decide it is somehow better to pick out the negatives and discount the positives, the hard work it took to get there, the hard work that is still going on and those that engage in that work. They are part of the crowd who said Afghanistan would never get as far as it has. 1/2 full or 1/2 empty? Oops, must not be working, after all, they've had a couple of years to get all this done!!
I'm sorry for the italics. I merely forgot to close a tag. My bad.

No, what I wrote is mine. If I ever directly quote an article, I will always post a link to the source.Always.

I however,certainly didn't coin the phrase "Mayor of Kabul..." as it relates to Harmid Karzai. The fact that only a tiny percentage of Afghanistan is secure or controlled by the gov't of Karzai is all but common knowledge. But here's a link to the reference, and a quote.At home Karzai has been nicknamed the "Mayor of Kabul", reflecting insecurity outside the capital, with a Taliban insurgency in the South and former mujahideen -- holy warriors -- controlling many parts of the north with their private militias. http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/SP112466.htm
Listen, I would dare say that 100% of Afghanistan is under the control of criminals by the very fact that opium/heroin is over 50% of Afghanistan's GDP.

But, heroin prices are way down You say? Of course they are! That's what happens when the supply goes up 40%.1. Heroin trafficking: Afghanistan is the world’s leading producer of opium. The 2003 production was estimated at 3,600 metric tonnes – a figure that is expected to increase this year (the results of the 2004 opium survey will be made public in late October). http://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/press_releases.html As You can see I cannot produce evidence of a 40% increase, for '04 however just google it. The UN was supposed to release the above mentioned survey [in the quote] in early Oct. but decided to wait until the Afghan elections were over. Probably, the UN is also being pressured by the White House to hold the damning report until after US elections as well. Just a guess.

Accuse me of seeing a glass that is half-empty as You wish but I prefer to think that way in regards to Afghanistan's problems, rather than stick my head in the sand.

Terror is funded with opium/heroin, 75% of the worlds opium comes from Afghanistan, ergo Afghanistan is nothing for the US to be bragging about, as far as I'm concerned.

[Stiofán]

So you'd support having everything reversed, the Taliban restored to power, al Qaeda still running numerous terrorist training facilities, woman still denied the chance to work, educate, drive, vote, etc.

I may be looking at the glass half full, but your'e not looking at it at all it seems. Afghanistan has got a long way to go, but so does Columbia, Nigeria, Bangledesh or a hundred other cesspools on this planet. We're taking steps here, not long jumps.

[Sacchiridites]

Terror is funded with opium/heroin, 75% of the worlds opium comes from Afghanistan, ergo Afghanistan is nothing for the US to be bragging about, as far as I'm concerned.

Exactly what I thought you were saying. :)

[cdw]

Yes the drug traffic is high. And it is expected to get higher before it gets any better, so be prepared.
I do not have my head in the sand (guess that's better than up my ass though). I believed when all this started and still believe it will take time for Afghanistan needs to go. I never expected it to turn over night, nor did I ever think it would be 'fixed' in the short term. To me, steps have been and are being taken to get to the end of the tunnel. Do I think the Afghanis and those who are there helping them deserve credit for that? I sure as hell do!
Do I think because there is a problem with creating a viable product for Afghanistan it negates the progress that has been made? Hell no!

Oh, ye of little faith. :) Meet ya back here in 5 years. We'll talk then. :)

[AmeritecTech]

Yes, after billions of US dollars, and thousands of "smart-bombs", Afghanistan has managed to hold elections. An election for "The MAYOR, of Kabul". So what?

Afghanistan is rapidly descending into a failed narco-terrorist state. Nearly all of Afghanistan's economy is based on opium/heroin and warlords control in excess of 90% of the country.

Yes, this is just flipping fantastic.

Am I surprised that there wasn't more violence and disturbance of this "democratic election"? No, far from it. Why would the warlords and the remnants of the Taliban bother to disrupt an election that didn't mean squat in the first place? They wouldn't. No, the real leaders in Afghanistan are ecstatic with the new status quo. Unfettered opium trade, to the tune of billions. A new record crop of opium as a matter of fact. Up as much as 40% from last years $2.5 billion dollars worth.

Bush's shinning success in Afghanistan, the road-map for the way we hope Iraq will turn out. Please. I think I may just puke.
So Afghanistan, a mountainous country with few redeeming resource-oriented characteristics has discovered a cash crop that they can sell so that they can keep themselves fed and clothed? Good for them, and shame on you for saying they shouldn't be allowed to grow it.

[AmeritecTech]

Terror is funded with opium/heroin, 75% of the worlds opium comes from Afghanistan, ergo Afghanistan is nothing for the US to be bragging about, as far as I'm concerned.
You've proved that opium production is on the incline, but you need to prove that the profits are providing significant support to Al Qaeda. You need to prove that multi-billionaire playboy Osama bin Laden needs any help buying box cutters, and that he has turned to opium production for this help.

[AmeritecTech]

Furthermore, you're going to need to condemn spice providers like McCormick who sell poppy seeds to people in this country who want to put it on their bagel. By buying poppy seeds from producers around the world, they are propping up a global market for opium poppy plants and seeds, and you allege this is creating terrorism.

[ethics]

You've proved that opium production is on the incline, but you need to prove that the profits are providing significant support to Al Qaeda. You need to prove that multi-billionaire playboy Osama bin Laden needs any help buying box cutters, and that he has turned to opium production for this help.

AH! And this is what I love about this forum and its members. When I think I have an opinion someone totally blows it away with something I can't poke holes with. :)

[X Man]

You've proved that opium production is on the incline, but you need to prove that the profits are providing significant support to Al Qaeda. You need to prove that multi-billionaire playboy Osama bin Laden needs any help buying box cutters, and that he has turned to opium production for this help. If only it weren't so obvious. Alas, the "proof"....The al Qaeda terror group has embraced heroin trafficking to such an extent that its leader, Osama bin Laden, is now a "narco-terrorist," says a U.S. congressman just back from a fact-finding mission in Pakistan and Afghanistan.
"It seems clear to me heroin is the No. 1 financial asset of Osama bin Laden," Rep. Mark Steven Kirk, Illinois Republican, told The Washington Times. "There is a need to update our view of how terrorism is financed.
"And the view of Osama bin Laden relying on Wahhabi donations from abroad is outdated. And the view of him as one of the world's largest heroin dealers is the more accurate, up-to-date view." http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20040121-101225-6688r.htm And this, from the puppet himself..."Poppies are not only criminalizing the Afghan economy, destroying our agriculture, destroying lives, addicting people, but they are also going hand in hand with terrorism, with extremism and with warlords in Afghanistan," Karzai said in August. http://www.pbs.org/newshour/extra/features/july-dec04/afghanistan_10-25.html And more...Drug money sustains al Qaeda http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20031229-120302-2009r.htm

Terrorism's Harvest

How al-Qaeda is tapping into the opium trade to finance its operations http://www.time.com/time/asia/magazine/printout/0,13675,501040809-674806,00.html "Opium is a source of literally billions of dollars to extremist and criminal groups" http://usinfo.state.gov/gi/Archive/2004/Apr/02-745859.html The U.S. investigation of the September terrorist attacks revealed that Afghanistan's Taliban leadership and the al Qaeda terrorist organization sustained themselves on profits from opium poppy production... http://usinfo.state.gov/regional/nea/sasia/afghan/text/0301drug.htm I getting tired, is that enough?

As for the McCormick spice crack/crap, I'll not dignify it with a response. http://www.globalaffairs.org/forum/images/smilies/whistle.gif

Also, as far as being "ashamed" that I want to eradicate opium in Afghanistan, because it's the most profitable crop for the citizenry to grow. I could give a shit.

[AmeritecTech]

If only it weren't so obvious. Alas, the "proof".... And this, from the puppet himself... And more... I getting tired, is that enough?

As for the McCormick spice crack/crap, I'll not dignify it with a response. images/smilies/whistle.gif

Also, as far as being "ashamed" that I want to eradicate opium in Afghanistan, because it's the most profitable crop for the citizenry to grow. I could give a shit.
Why won't you dignify the McCormick issue with a response? They are selling the seeds of papaver somniferum, one of the most common strains of opium used for heroin production. In fact, throwing the seeds you can buy at your grocery store in the garden will yield you an illegal opium plant. They are selling the materials people can use to grow opium which can then be sold to finance terrorists. Furthermore, they are purchasing seeds on the global market which affects the market price. The more they buy, the higher the price goes and the more money there is going into the pockets of terrorists, even if they're not buying their seeds from Afghanistan.

I must also assume that you're calling for all oil wells to be demolished, after all, Osama bin Laden's inheritance comes from an oil fortune. There's no difference, right?

[ShinyTop]

Also, as far as being "ashamed" that I want to eradicate opium in Afghanistan, because it's the most profitable crop for the citizenry to grow. I could give a shit.


Yes, your concern for the Afghani citizenry is so admirable. Should they all just eat chicken droppings before we can help them change?

Since I assume you were not against looking for Osama and agreed with attacking Al Queda (really, really trying to give you the benefit of the doubt, here) would you have had us just lay waste to the country and then leave?

[X Man]

Yes, your concern for the Afghani citizenry is so admirable. Should they all just eat chicken droppings before we can help them change?

Since I assume you were not against looking for Osama and agreed with attacking Al Queda (really, really trying to give you the benefit of the doubt, here) would you have had us just lay waste to the country and then leave?
The opium trade is a concern of mine because it's going to directly affect how and by what means Al Qeada is going to kill Americans and others. If Afghanis will go hungry if opium is eradicated, than the US and the UN should provide them with food for 1 season. Then Afganis should grow some legitimate crops. I've no sympathy for terrorists or those who trade with them.

What would I have US do?
1.Eradicate opium crops. All of them, now and in the future, by whatever means necessary. The security of the United States depends on it.
2. It's a little late now, but the 130,000 troops in Iraq, should be in Afghanistan, eradicating every last trace of opiates and terrorists. Period. Of course this didn't happen, nor will it. At least not under this administration.
3. Capture Osama Bin Laden. Obviously this should/should've been the United States top priority. Again, it wasn't, nor is it now.

At least John Kerry mentioned the opium emergency in Afghanistan in the first debate, so perhaps he's more aware and concerned about it.

If I could go back in time a bit further.... I would've had the US but out of Afghanistan and allow the Soviet Union to have Afghanistan in the first place, rather than getting into a pointless proxy war with them over it. :thumbsup:

[AmeritecTech]

The opium trade is a concern of mine because it's going to directly affect how and by what means Al Qeada is going to kill Americans and others. If Afghanis will go hungry if opium is eradicated, than the US and the UN should provide them with food for 1 season. Then Afganis should grow some legitimate crops. I've no sympathy for terrorists or those who trade with them.
You do, every day you buy oil-based products. And what legitimate crops? What crops grow in arrid deserts other than opium?

What would I have US do?
1.Eradicate opium crops. All of them, now and in the future, by whatever means necessary. The security of the United States depends on it.
Just in Afghanistan or everywhere? Sorry, but you're not going to get Americans to give up poppy seeds, and poppy seeds come from the same opium plants used to produce heroin.

[ShinyTop]

If I could go back in time a bit further.... I would've had the US but out of Afghanistan and allow the Soviet Union to have Afghanistan in the first place, rather than getting into a pointless proxy war with them over it. :thumbsup:

I guess that is the last word. We would be better off in the midst of the cold war than we are now, is that what you are implying. Because you should be aware that the USSR fell economically and the Afghanistan War was a big contributor to that. Coupled with the huge cost of weapons development to counter the US the USSR failed and millions today are choosing their own governments and we have a much reduced military.

But everybody to their own choice.

[X Man]

You do, every day you buy oil-based products. And what legitimate crops? What crops grow in arid deserts other than opium? Here http://www.futureharvest.org/news/afghanistan_fh4.shtml is a group of hippies that are willing to help Afghanis grow legal crops. I don't give a crap what they grow, as long it doesn't fund people who want to kill You.


Just in Afghanistan or everywhere? Sorry, but you're not going to get Americans to give up poppy seeds, and poppy seeds come from the same opium plants used to produce heroin. Everywhere, everywhere the crops move to, because they'd certainly move. Yes, eradicate the poison wherever it begins to substantially fund people who want to kill You. In cool temperate zones the plant does not produce sufficient of the narcotic principles to make their extraction feasible and cultivation of the plant is perfectly legal in Britain[K]. Plants have ripened their seeds as far north as latitude 69°n in Norway[141]. http://www.scs.leeds.ac.uk/cgi-bin/pfaf/arr_html?Papaver+somniferum&CAN=COMIND Therefore , these poppies grown in the Netherlands [for instance] are far more useful for your bagels than my arm.rofl

[Copzilla]

You know, by these standards, no matter what they grow, they'll reap the profits for growing it, and then use that money to kill us. What about that money being used to kill us? Shall we then burn all their sugar cane fields? Corn fields razed?

The more they prosper in any regard, the more they'll have resources to kill us. We need to nuke them back to the stone age, keep nuking them until nothing will grow but three legged babies. There's a plan. And then once we nuke Bin Laden, we'll all be safe, because there's only one terrorist in the world.

[AmeritecTech]

Here http://www.futureharvest.org/news/afghanistan_fh4.shtml is a group of hippies that are willing to help Afghanis grow legal crops. I don't give a crap what they grow, as long it doesn't fund people who want to kill You.

Everywhere, everywhere the crops move to, because they'd certainly move. Yes, eradicate the poison wherever it begins to substantially fund people who want to kill You. Therefore , these poppies grown in the Netherlands [for instance] are far more useful for your bagels than my arm.rofl
The poppies that produce poppy seeds are the same strain that is used for papaver somniferum! There are many breeds of poppy plants, but papaver somniferum is used to produce heroin and also is the source of poppy seeds. McCormick gets their poppy seeds from the Netherlands, Australia and Romania. These countries will probably not willingly go along with the plan to get rid of all the poppy plants and you certainly won't get any help from the U.N., so are you prepared to undertake unilateral invasions of these countries to stop them from producing poppy plants?

[X Man]

The poppies that produce poppy seeds are the same strain that is used for papaver somniferum! There are many breeds of poppy plants, but papaver somniferum is used to produce heroin and also is the source of poppy seeds. McCormick gets their poppy seeds from the Netherlands, Australia and Romania. These countries will probably not willingly go along with the plan to get rid of all the poppy plants and you certainly won't get any help from the U.N., so are you prepared to undertake unilateral invasions of these countries to stop them from producing poppy plants? You're good, but I'm on to you.
Yes, it's the same plant. However, in certain temperate climates the lack of a hot growing season yields less opiate in the plants. Still, doesn't matter. Obviously, some nations can be trusted to grow opium poppies for legal uses. Netherlands,Austrailia and even perhaps even Romania. No problem Grow all the opium poppies in those countries you want. Afghanistan, and other terrorist states? No, eradicate it.

I assume your line of attack is to get me to agree that unilateral action would be justified, because you know that I'm anti Iraq war 1 and 2, 1 especially. Yes, of course. The opium problem in Afghanistan is the US's concern and the US must take the lead regardless of what the UN would say. However, I'd sure put it on the table for a vote. Then, I'd unilaterally invade terrorist states who were reaping billions in opium money for terrorists. Opium, in these terrorist nations is a WMD and one that is actual and not potential. Bring it on.:thumbsup:

[ethics]

I assume your line of attack is to get me to agree that unilateral action would be justified, because you know that I'm anti Iraq war 1 and 2, 1 especially. :

If I recall correctly, AT is anti Iraq-war and anti-intervention. His line of "attack" is specific to the issue you brought up.

Let me also add that if you are afraid of creating more terrorists, scorched poppy fields is not your way out and, imho, would be counterproductive; creating something you fear.

[Advocat]

Some interesting analysis of the peasant/poppy growing industry in Afghanistan. Though published before 9/11, you'll find the research tends to ignore governments, and concentrate on why/how peasants use the poppy crop for survival, therefore the studies still apply. Links to these reports will be found at:
http://www.unodc.org/pakistan/en/publications.html

Strategic Study #1
Preliminary Report, June 1998
An Analysis of the Process of Expansion of Opium Poppy Cultivation to New Districts in Afghanistan

Strategic Study #2
Final Report, October 1998
The Dynamics of the Farmgate Opium Trade and the Coping Strategies of Opium Traders

Strategic Study #3
Preliminary Report, January 1999
The Role of Opium as a source of Informal Credit

Strategic Study #4
Final Report, June 1999
Access to Labour: The Role of Opium in the Livelihood Strategies of Itinerant Harvesters Working in Helmand Province, Afghanistan

Essentially, they say the peasants harvest opium, or starve. There may not be much success in Afghanistan until a different crop, with guaranteed sales, is introduced.

[ethics]

Thanks Advocat.

AT brought up a kick ass statement on the drug industry. If it supports a desolate country free of any natural or man made economy, why not use opium production?

[AmeritecTech]

You're good, but I'm on to you.
Yes, it's the same plant. However, in certain temperate climates the lack of a hot growing season yields less opiate in the plants. Still, doesn't matter. Obviously, some nations can be trusted to grow opium poppies for legal uses. Netherlands,Austrailia and even perhaps even Romania. No problem Grow all the opium poppies in those countries you want. Afghanistan, and other terrorist states? No, eradicate it.

I assume your line of attack is to get me to agree that unilateral action would be justified, because you know that I'm anti Iraq war 1 and 2, 1 especially. Yes, of course. The opium problem in Afghanistan is the US's concern and the US must take the lead regardless of what the UN would say. However, I'd sure put it on the table for a vote. Then, I'd unilaterally invade terrorist states who were reaping billions in opium money for terrorists. Opium, in these terrorist nations is a WMD and one that is actual and not potential. Bring it on.:thumbsup:
Imagine. You're an opium farmer in Afghanistan under the Taliban and you've successfully stayed under the radar of your Taliban overseers and kept your family fed. One of Osama bin Laden's lieutenants asks you to join Al Qaeda. They will pay you well and send you to America or Britain or Spain where you will commit terrorist acts and they will ensure your family stays fed. You decline, because your family is eating. The lieutenant tells you that the offer remains open, should you change your mind.

The United States comes in and destroys the Taliban. You are happy, because the Taliban have killed or maimed many of your friends and relatives. Hamid Karzai is appointed and you think perhaps Afghanistan can become more moderate.

The United States Army shows up and tells you it will be destroying your poppy fields. They do not care if you use your fields for subsistence farming only (after all, many meals can be made from poppy seeds, ask MorWired). They do not care if you are selling the product of your work to buy food and medicine for your family. They will not be reimbursing you for your previous 6 months of laboring in the fields to grow the plants. They will be destroying your fields and moving on.

You stand on the back porch of your house and you look at your fields burning. You look around and you see an arid desert with nothing for as far as you can see. Your opium poppies were the only thing growing out of the Earth for miles in each direction. You look at your family, huddled in the house. Your wife is trying to calm the children, but you can see the despair in her eyes. You have enough food to last you perhaps a month, after which you don't know what you're going to do. There are no jobs in your country because the opium trade is just about the only business your country can support, aside from an oil pipeline, and that's already fully employed with foreign workers working for the oil company. In one month, your food will run out and your family will starve to death. The United States Army put you in this position and did nothing to help you recover from the complete destruction of your labors and your way of life.

The Al Qaeda lieutenant is in the back of your head. You are not a terrorist. You cannot imagine killing civilians for no good reason. You are a farmer, and want to continue farming, but no crop but opium will grow. You take one more look at your children, young and naive, and at your wife, fearful of the future but trying hard to convince the children that everything will be okay, and your decision is made. You are not a terrorist. But you can become one. You contact the lieutenant.

[Sacchiridites]

Isn't it highly unlikely the US will destroy all the poppy fields? I'm sure the global pharmaceutical industry will find other ways of using/regulating it. So will the terrorists from within-illegal drugs.

[AmeritecTech]

Isn't it highly unlikely the US will destroy all the poppy fields? I'm sure the global pharmaceutical industry will find other ways of using/regulating it. So will the terrorists from within-illegal drugs.
Yes, we will not destroy the fields, but that is what X Man is proposing, so that is what I'm arguing against. Regarding terrorists, they do not care if they make their money from illegal opium or legal oil.

[Sacchiridites]

Yes, we will not destroy the fields, but that is what X Man is proposing, so that is what I'm arguing against. Regarding terrorists, they do not care if they make their money from illegal opium or legal oil.
yup, yup