View Full Version : Hmmm... looks like Kerry cheated...
efuseakay
10-03-2004, 04:10 PM
Now, I am not going to start calling for an investigation or Kerry's arrest... but this does tell you more about Kerry's character than I am sure he and his handlers ever wanted you to know... the truth...
Rules of the debate:
http://www.c-span.org/pdf/memounderstanding.pdf
(c) No props, notes, charts, diagrams, or other writings or other tangible things may be brought into the debate by either candidate.
...
(d) Notwithstanding subparagraph 5(c), the candidates may take notes during the debate on the size, color and type of paper each side prefers. Each candidate must submit to the staff of the Commission prior to the debate all such paper and any pens or pencils with which a candidate may wish to take notes during the debate, and the staff or commission will place such paper, pens and pencils on the podium, table or other structure to be used by the candidate in that debate.
Sounds fair enough, right? Well, watch this video... tsk tsk...
http://dailyrecycler.typepad.com/blog/files/cue_cards.WMV
http://www.indcjournal.com/archives/video_link.jpg
LissaKay
10-03-2004, 04:14 PM
Maybe it was his special, magical, good luck CIA hat ...
:lol:
el scorcho
10-03-2004, 04:20 PM
until there is actual clarification of what was brought up, i'll reserve judgement on calling them 'cue cards'. besides, if you're going to be making a character assassination over this, i'd love to hear your thoughts of bush's character after his lack of composure duing parts of the debate.
Joey1812
10-03-2004, 04:27 PM
I think someone said this over at DSLR a few weeks ago, and I'd like to echo it: Getting all your news from Matt Drudge isn't healthy.
Drudge's problem is that he reports what others are investigating. He does no real work and publishes gossip that has yet to be confirmed. He loves anonymous quotes & the word "developing" because it means he doesn't have to offer facts to back anything up. He's internet sleeze and this is just yet another ploy by the neo-cons to spin the real results of the debate.
Frodo Lives
10-03-2004, 04:28 PM
until there is actual clarification of what was brought up, i'll reserve judgement on calling them 'cue cards'. besides, if you're going to be making a character assassination over this, i'd love to hear your thoughts of bush's character after his lack of composure duing parts of the debate.
Having bad composure is not against the rules of the debate has no basis in this thread.
ethics
10-03-2004, 04:30 PM
I think someone said this over at DSLR a few weeks ago, and I'd like to echo it: Getting all your news from Matt Drudge isn't healthy.
Drudge's problem is that he reports what others are investigating. He does no real work and publishes gossip that has yet to be confirmed. He loves anonymous quotes & the word "developing" because it means he doesn't have to offer facts to back anything up. He's internet sleeze and this is just yet another ploy by the neo-cons to spin the real results of the debate.
Agreed there. I would also state that calling Drudge a political blogger is an insult to other bloggers.
Even if the video is true, Efu, I don't think this measures as a big deal in my book. I don't think, for the fence sitters, Kerry won as much as Bush lost.
ethics
10-03-2004, 04:33 PM
Having bad composure is not against the rules of the debate has no basis in this thread.
He meant in the meat and potatoes of the debate, as in where it counts. I thought Bush did more harm to himself than Kerry did to Bush (or to himself).
joseftu
10-03-2004, 04:34 PM
You can't tell from that video what he was pulling out of his pocket. Maybe it was his magic wand? Handkerchief? Tictacs?:)
Shall we now start repeating the "Bush was coached through an earphone" story, too?
No, I think it was as close to fair as we're going to get in any debate...and it really doesn't look good to grasp at straws like this.
efuseakay
10-03-2004, 04:36 PM
until there is actual clarification of what was brought up, i'll reserve judgement on calling them 'cue cards'. besides, if you're going to be making a character assassination over this, i'd love to hear your thoughts of bush's character after his lack of composure duing parts of the debate.
Did you even bother reading the rules both sides agreed to?
Now, here are more pics...
http://www.zombietime.com/kerry_at_first_debate/
It wasn't a hanky... it wasn't a pen...
You want to talk about Bush's lack of composure? How would you compose yourself hearing all the lies passing Kerry's lips?
:crazy:
Joey1812
10-03-2004, 04:39 PM
Now, here are more pics...Yeah because no one can use photoshop these days...
:rolleyes:
You can't tell from that video what he was pulling out of his pocket.My thought also. It could have been his crying hanky! rofl
joseftu
10-03-2004, 04:40 PM
Totally impossible to tell from those pictures.
Joey1812
10-03-2004, 04:40 PM
You want to talk about Bush's lack of composure? How would you compose yourself hearing all the lies passing Kerry's lips?If Bush can't handle different opinions then he has NO business holding political office.
joseftu
10-03-2004, 04:41 PM
My thought also. It could have been his crying hanky! roflUmm...I'd watch out for that--somebody was close to tears!;)
Frodo Lives
10-03-2004, 04:41 PM
He meant in the meat and potatoes of the debate, as in where it counts. I thought Bush did more harm to himself than Kerry did to Bush (or to himself).
That is still a matter of opinion and not about rule breaking. Pointing out that Kerry may have cheated is not character assassination, but trying to take attention away from that and place it on Bush's composer is deceitful at best. I have talked to a lot, and I mean a lot of people that saw the debate and really loved how Bush acted. They are very sick and tired of slick Willy politicians that are all smiles and hand shakes. Many agree with me that Bush was pissed because he came for a debate with Kerry but all he got was a campaign speech. I know more then one person that will now vote for Bush to get ride of Kerry.
Frodo Lives
10-03-2004, 04:46 PM
If Bush can't handle different opinions then he has NO business holding political office.
Different opinions and rhetorical bullshit are totally different things. Kerry has no business holding political office if he can't explain exactly how he can do a better job. But he doesn't, all he does is SAY he can do better. Hell, I can say I can do a better job, but it doesn't mean I can.
Frodo Lives
10-03-2004, 04:47 PM
My thought also. It could have been his crying hanky! rofl
Or his war time medals. If things had started to go bad, he would have thrown them at Bush. :nut:
efuseakay
10-03-2004, 04:49 PM
Umm...I'd watch out for that--somebody was close to tears!;)
Yeah... it looked like someone's mascara was running... :)
Ok, so some of you don't think this is a big deal... now ask yourself this question honestly:
What if the President and not John Kerry did this?
No big deal, you say? :whistle:
The rules of the debate were simple, and no matter how hard you try to make excuses for Kerry, he broke them.
Joey1812
10-03-2004, 04:51 PM
Different opinions and rhetorical bullshit are totally different things. If you call what either side said in the debate "rhetorical bullshit" then you must have been watching a different debate than me. I heard two very different visions for our country. Both sides were pretty clear on what they wanted to accomplish. Yes many times Kerry said that he would be better. If you paid any attention to the next words out of his mouth they were almost always reasons why he would be better.
Wouldn't a strong commander-in-chief be able to handle himself even if it was "rehtorical bullshit"? I would hope so... :rolleyes:
AmeritecTech
10-03-2004, 04:53 PM
Yeah because no one can use photoshop these days...
:rolleyes:
That's a weak reply. If you question the shots, freezeframe the video yourself and do your own screenshots, THEN blame photoshop.
el scorcho
10-03-2004, 04:54 PM
i read the rules, but to label what he's pulling out of his coat 'cue cards' is nothing more than heresay and gossip.
also, to point out the 'lies' in kerry's lips, you also have to give service to the 'lies' passed through bush's lips. the way i read about the debates or the election at large from both sides, i swear it was as if god was running against the devil incarnate himself.
Joey1812
10-03-2004, 04:56 PM
That's a weak reply. If you question the shots, freezeframe the video yourself and do your own screenshots, THEN blame photoshop.Woah buddy... I'm merely suggesting that some random (ie: not mutally agreed upon reliable source) web site's photographic evidence could easily be tainted.
AmeritecTech
10-03-2004, 04:57 PM
Totally impossible to tell from those pictures.
Few items would have been acceptable to draw out of his pocket. The rules even dictate how pens are to be handled.
He also seems to have chosen the best possible time if he wanted to sneak in some notes. He couldn't be holding them in his hand as he walked up, nor could he have drawn them AFTER he turned to face what he thought were the cameras.
INDEED, one of the rules of the debates PROHIBITED shots from behind the candidates! The only reason these shots are in the debate is because the media gave the CPD the finger and said that they were not required to play by any rules since they were not party to the agreement.
I think there's a good chance those are notes, and if they're not, what could they possibly be?
efuseakay
10-03-2004, 04:57 PM
i read the rules, but to label what he's pulling out of his coat 'cue cards' is nothing more than heresay and gossip.
also, to point out the 'lies' in kerry's lips, you also have to give service to the 'lies' passed through bush's lips. the way i read about the debates or the election at large from both sides, i swear it was as if god was running against the devil incarnate himself.
Know what tangible means? These rules were set for a reason... Kerry just couldn't help but break them.
Frodo Lives
10-03-2004, 05:00 PM
I think there's a good chance those are notes, and if they're not, what could they possibly be?
It's possible, although not very likely, that is was a small mirror to check his makeup and hair.
I do believe they where notes. If it's fount that they are notes, Kerry needs a swift kick in the pants.
joseftu
10-03-2004, 05:01 PM
What if the President and not John Kerry did this?According to some sources (which are just about as trustworthy--or un--as the one you cite), the President <b>did</b>. If he was receiving coaching through an earpiece, it's the same kind of rule-breaking.
But I haven't seen any convincing evidence that the President used an earpiece, and I haven't seen any convincing evidence that Kerry broke the rules, either.
And in either case, I still think it's no big deal.
el scorcho
10-03-2004, 05:01 PM
Know what tangible means? These rules were set for a reason... Kerry just couldn't help but break them.yes. because kerry's a cheater. cheater cheater cheater. :clap:
Yeah... it looked like someone's mascara was running... :)Damn...I thought it was just a bad batch of botox. :P
efuseakay
10-03-2004, 05:04 PM
According to some sources (which are just about as trustworthy--or un--as the one you cite), the President <b>did</b>. If he was receiving coaching through an earpiece, it's the same kind of rule-breaking.
But I haven't seen any convincing evidence that the President used an earpiece, and I haven't seen any convincing evidence that Kerry broke the rules, either.
And in either case, I still think it's no big deal.
So that's it? Kerry is caught on video clearly breaking the rules, but it's ok because the President "might have had" an earpiece? :rolleyes:
What would convince you that Kerry took something out of his coat pocket while his back was to the audience and the moderator, aside from it being caught on tape like it was?
Joey1812
10-03-2004, 05:09 PM
What would convince you that Kerry took something out of his coat pocket while his back was to the audience and the moderator, aside from it being caught on tape like it was?
For me it would take a clear video of it. The only video I've seen is terribly pixilated and thus inconsequential. If someone has some high res video somewhere I'd love to see it.
joseftu
10-03-2004, 05:17 PM
Joey said it. Kerry wasn't caught on video clearly breaking the rules. If you have such a video, let's see it.
And if you have, even if he did have a piece of paper and the president did not have an earpiece, or if the president did have an earpiece and Kerry did not have a piece of paper, I'm trying to say that it just doesn't matter.
I said that I haven't seen any evidence that <b>either</b> of them broke the rules. But I think that <b>both</b> claims, even if true, are insignficant and trivial.
efuseakay
10-03-2004, 05:19 PM
Joey said it. Kerry wasn't caught on video clearly breaking the rules. If you have such a video, let's see it.
And if you have, even if he did have a piece of paper and the president did not have an earpiece, or if the president did have an earpiece and Kerry did not have a piece of paper, I'm trying to say that it just doesn't matter.
I said that I haven't seen any evidence that <b>either</b> of them broke the rules. But I think that <b>both</b> claims, even if true, are insignficant and trivial.
Kerry was caught on video taking something out of his coat pocket, unfolding it, and looking at it. Where is there a video of something that may pass as an earpiece on the President?
There is another video here:
http://boston.com/news/special/politics/debate_video/sept29/1.html
Follow the link below to a video of the debate. Get past the ad. Zoom full screen, then select slow play speed and watch the first 25 seconds or so. You will clearly see Kerry take something out of his pocket. And it ain't no hanky.
Now, read this article...
http://www.heraldnet.com/stories/04/09/30/opi_hoagland001.cfm
I am not saying the author had any knowledge of this beforehand... but it's pretty funny, after having watched the video...
ethics
10-03-2004, 06:02 PM
What if the President and not John Kerry did this?
.
I'd say the same thing to Joe and the OTHER side that would be hand wringing about what Bush did.
LMAO, sorry, that was a joke, don't report me dammit!!! ;)
Techie2000
10-03-2004, 06:02 PM
Err, this seems a bit farfetched. I can't tell anything from my video. However I think I shall put on my tinfoil beanie and wait for the people in charge to decide.
bruzzes
10-03-2004, 08:15 PM
Actually, it was a picture of his lovely wife.
Cousin Dave
10-03-2004, 08:35 PM
It was a naked pic of Hillary. :happy:
Stiofán
10-03-2004, 08:53 PM
It was a picture of bigfoot...whoops same thing.
kingdome74
10-03-2004, 08:59 PM
It was his pre-nup stating that if he doesn't win then he's out on his ass.
Or his war time medals. If things had started to go bad, he would have thrown them at Bush. :nut:
:lol: Frodo, You crack me up. Thank you.
araina
10-03-2004, 10:15 PM
Of course...of course. Kerry cheated. :nut:
If that gives you a face saving way out to admit GW got his ass WHOOPPED! rofl
I'm not sure if you meant that for me or not. Personally I think the whole thread is lame. Don't see it as breaking news, but, hey.... I just visit. :)
araina
10-03-2004, 10:21 PM
I'm not sure if you meant that for me or not. Personally I think the whole thread is lame. Don't see it as breaking news, but, hey.... I just visit. :)
Not you...just the whole idea of Kerry cheating.
It's right out there with Bush's secret in-the-ear headset with Karl Rove guiding him along.
How do people come up with this crap? The cheating in front of 55 million people on live TV is just as believable as that email from Bill Gates promising me $1million for downloading winxp.exe and testing it out.
edit: I did a "POST REPLY"...that means reply to no singular post but addressing the topic of the thread.
rockotman
10-03-2004, 10:22 PM
Senator Kerry had his notes...
President Bush had his earpiece (yeah -- that one's been floated, too)..
Comrade Rather had his memos....
Just some very good reasons to NOT believe most of what you see on film/tape or what you read, and only half of what you see in real-time with your own eyes.
rockotman
10-03-2004, 10:24 PM
The cheating in front of 55 million people on live TV is just as believable as that email from Bill Gates promising me $1million for downloading winxp.exe and testing it out.
You mean that Gates' email is a phony? :(
DAMN!!!
Not you...just the whole idea of Kerry cheating.
It's right out there with Bush's secret in-the-ear headset with Karl Rove guiding him along.
How do people come up with this crap? The cheating in front of 55 million people on live TV is just as believable as that email from Bill Gates promising me $1million for downloading winxp.exe and testing it out.
edit: I did a "POST REPLY"...that means reply to no singular post but addressing the topic of the thread.
Okey doke, I don't use the 'thread' type version so I didn't know.
I think it's all stupid. An ear piece? Yeah, whatever. Cue cards? Oh, ok. Like someone said in another thread and it was repeated....I can't wait until this election is over. It's getting really tiring.
joseftu
10-03-2004, 10:27 PM
Oh this is too, too funny!
Take another look at the video efusakay linked to in his first post to start this thread. That's right, the very first post, the exact same video that shows Kerry "cheating."
Right at the beginning--instead of watching Kerry for a second--take a closer look at President Bush.
What's he doing? Could it be he's...taking a piece of paper out of his pocket, unfolding it, and putting it on the podium?!!! Isn't that against the rules????
To tell the truth, I can't be any more sure that Bush has notes than I can be that Kerry has notes--but from that video, it's pretty evident that whatever they're both doing is <b>exactly</b> the same.
Can we let this drop now? Huh?
Nobody "cheated." Or they both "cheated." Either way--it doesn't matter.
efuseakay
10-04-2004, 12:02 AM
Oh this is too, too funny!
Take another look at the video efusakay linked to in his first post to start this thread. That's right, the very first post, the exact same video that shows Kerry "cheating."
Right at the beginning--instead of watching Kerry for a second--take a closer look at President Bush.
What's he doing? Could it be he's...taking a piece of paper out of his pocket, unfolding it, and putting it on the podium?!!! Isn't that against the rules????
To tell the truth, I can't be any more sure that Bush has notes than I can be that Kerry has notes--but from that video, it's pretty evident that whatever they're both doing is <b>exactly</b> the same.
Can we let this drop now? Huh?
Nobody "cheated." Or they both "cheated." Either way--it doesn't matter.
The President is picking up a pen from the lectern... you can see him remove the cap, and place it on the other end of the pen. It's obvious. Watch it again.
Anyway... here is a higher-res video of Kerry... now what is he fumbling with, hmmm?
http://homepage.mac.com/cfj/.Movies/JFKCheat.mov
You may think this is silly joseftu, but if Kerry can't even play by the rules he agrees to...
efuseakay
10-04-2004, 12:04 AM
I'd say the same thing to Joe and the OTHER side that would be hand wringing about what Bush did.
LMAO, sorry, that was a joke, don't report me dammit!!! ;)
Reporting you in 3... 2... 1... ;)
locas
10-04-2004, 12:06 AM
The President is picking up a pen from the lectern... you can see him remove the cap, and place it on the other end of the pen. It's obvious. Watch it again.
Anyway... here is a higher-res video of Kerry... now what is he fumbling with, hmmm?
http://homepage.mac.com/cfj/.Movies/JFKCheat.mov
You may think this is silly joseftu, but if Kerry can't even play by the rules he agrees to...Thanks man!! Now that it's blown up, it clearly looks like he took a pen out and removed the cap!!
I guess they'll have to null and void the whole debate because he used his own pen!!
Locas
joseftu
10-04-2004, 12:08 AM
Whatever the President has (and I've watched it a lot of times now)--it certainly is coming out of his jacket pocket--pen or paper, it's still against the rules. And even in your higher-res video, it's not at all clear what Kerry has--but it's also coming out of his jacket pocket--looks like it anyhow.
So, if one "can't play by the rules he agrees to," we have to admit that <b>both</b> "can't play by the rules."
So, yeah, it's silly. I'm not planning to spend any more time on it.
It is funny, though! :)
efuseakay
10-04-2004, 12:15 AM
Whatever the President has (and I've watched it a lot of times now)--it certainly is coming out of his jacket pocket--pen or paper, it's still against the rules. And even in your higher-res video, it's not at all clear what Kerry has--but it's also coming out of his jacket pocket--looks like it anyhow.
So, if one "can't play by the rules he agrees to," we have to admit that <b>both</b> "can't play by the rules."
So, yeah, it's silly. I'm not planning to spend any more time on it.
It is funny, though! :)
The President did not take anything out of his pockets... watch the video, look at him put his hand on the desk the same moment Kerry reaches into his jacket... the President is grabbing the pen from the desk, removing the cap, and putting back on the pen on the other end. He then puts his hand down ready for the debate.
Kerry takes something out of his coat pocket while his back is to the audience, turns around, unfolds it, and places it on the lectern.
I guess since Kerry did it, you aren't the least bit suspicious. :whistle:
locas
10-04-2004, 12:41 AM
The President did not take anything out of his pockets... watch the video, look at him put his hand on the desk the same moment Kerry reaches into his jacket... the President is grabbing the pen from the desk, removing the cap, and putting back on the pen on the other end. He then puts his hand down ready for the debate.
Kerry takes something out of his coat pocket while his back is to the audience, turns around, unfolds it, and places it on the lectern.
I guess since Kerry did it, you aren't the least bit suspicious. :whistle:Go back and watch the blown up video again. It's clearly a pen he takes out, and removes the cap.
Besides, I want to see the Bush campaign ask the American people to disregard the whole debate because Kerry pulled out his own pen or possibly some notes. I'd like to see how well that would work for them LOL.
Locas
I too am gonna have to say pen on this. Looks like both pulled out a pen. Woo hoo!
I wonder if Staff Sgt. Darren J. Cunningham who died on the day of the debate from a mortar attack in Baghdad would be concerned with the pens they used?
efuseakay
10-04-2004, 01:00 AM
Go back and watch the blown up video again. It's clearly a pen he takes out, and removes the cap.
Besides, I want to see the Bush campaign ask the American people to disregard the whole debate because Kerry pulled out his own pen or possibly some notes. I'd like to see how well that would work for them LOL.
Locas
A pen that needed to be unfolded and read? :lol:
You better watch Kerry's hands closer (go slow at 6 seconds on.. that's no pen)... and while you are at it, read the debate rules again...
(don't worry about there being something in his right hand as well)
locas
10-04-2004, 01:14 AM
A pen that needed to be unfolded and read? :lol:
You better watch Kerry's hands closer (go slow at 6 seconds on.. that's no pen)... and while you are at it, read the debate rules again...
I watched it again, and still do not see him unfolding anything. Just grabbing something in his pocket, and then holding it in his hand, and then removing the cap off of it. I suppose it could be some sort of explosive, secret decoder, or maybe chapstick...but I'm pretty sure it was a pen!!
Besides, so what if he did use his own pen, or God forbid, he brought notes? Do you seriously think that the Bush campaign is going to ask for another debate? Are you suggesting that the whole debate be thrown out of the public's mind?
He maybe, quite possibly, broke a stupid and silly rule put into a stupid and silly agreement written up by the Bush and Kerry campaigns. I hate to tell you this, but rules were broken all over the place during the debates!! The networks showed a split screen, and Bush kept talking when his red light started flashing!!!! THE HORROR!!!
Locas
ethics
10-04-2004, 01:17 AM
Folks, at this point, I think we should just agree to disagree. I don't think the video is enough to prove it or disprove it, from either candidates. I think we should be looking in to more substantial issues of our potential Presidents and imho, this isn't it.
Just seems circular and will continue to be so. We have less than a month to go, let's just agree to disagree. :)
Biker
10-04-2004, 01:23 AM
A hint... :dead:
efuseakay
10-04-2004, 01:24 AM
I watched it again, and still do not see him unfolding anything. Just grabbing something in his pocket, and then holding it in his hand, and then removing the cap off of it. I suppose it could be some sort of explosive, secret decoder, or maybe chapstick...but I'm pretty sure it was a pen!!
Besides, so what if he did use his own pen, or God forbid, he brought notes? Do you seriously think that the Bush campaign is going to ask for another debate? Are you suggesting that the whole debate be thrown out of the public's mind?
He maybe, quite possibly, broke a stupid and silly rule put into a stupid and silly agreement written up by the Bush and Kerry campaigns. I hate to tell you this, but rules were broken all over the place during the debates!! The networks showed a split screen, and Bush kept talking when his red light started flashing!!!! THE HORROR!!!
Locas
Did you bother to read the debate rules which he also agreed upon? It's not a pen.
kingdome74
10-04-2004, 10:10 AM
This really is a non-issue: it's not like he was stuffing highly classified documents IN his pockets :whistle:
Actually, I wholeheartedly believe that John Kerry was taking his "plan for a better and safer America" out of his pocket and rubbing it for good luck.
Since it is not a "tangible object", and no one but him has actually seen it, (I believe he calls it "Harvey"?) it does not violate the rules he agreed to prior to the debate one iota.
Steve
10-04-2004, 10:26 AM
At least it wasn't Clinton taking something out of his pocket and rubbing it! rofl
Did you bother to read the debate rules which he also agreed upon? It's not a pen.
Actualy, the Kerry camp is going on record in some stories this AM as "pleading guilty" to it being a black pen, and they laugh off the fact that he did violate a rule as "vicious attacks by right-winged bloggers". :rolleyes:
locas
10-04-2004, 12:37 PM
The NY Post analyzed the video and discovered that it was a pen!!
http://www.nypost.com/news/nationalnews/31273.htm
That question was burning up the Internet yesterday after a slo-mo review of the footage showed the Massachusetts senator taking an object out of his right pocket before the first question.
Was it a cheat sheet — as some conservative bloggers claimed — or was it something innocuous?
Either way, it would violate the debate rules agreed to by both campaigns: "No props, notes . . . or other tangible things may be brought into the debate."
Many blogs offered links to the "Pocket-gate" footage. One, INDC Journal, even posted frame-by-frame stills purporting to show Kerry pulling out a notecard and placing it onto the podium. But the mystery was solved when The Post reviewed a Fox News Channel feed from Thursday's debate: Kerry pulled out . . . a black pen.
LissaKay
10-04-2004, 12:39 PM
Damn ... my brand new LCD monitor is messed up already! That black pen looks white on my screen!
Where's the damn warranty?? I demand a refund!
joseftu
10-04-2004, 12:42 PM
Oh, the <i>New York Post</i>! Well, we don't have to pay any attention to <b>that</b> left-wing whacko liberal rag!;)
I'm glad we got all of that cleared up! (How long do you think the story will continue to be trumpeted by Drudge and his ilk? ;))
SixofNine
10-04-2004, 12:53 PM
All I know is that if Bush had an earpiece his campaign should fire whomever was talking at the other end of that connection. rofl
As for Kerry, there's an easy explanation: he was in favor of the agreed-upon, written rules, but he was also against them.
Brian
efuseakay
10-04-2004, 01:52 PM
Oh, the <i>New York Post</i>! Well, we don't have to pay any attention to <b>that</b> left-wing whacko liberal rag!;)
I'm glad we got all of that cleared up! (How long do you think the story will continue to be trumpeted by Drudge and his ilk? ;))
Let's see what Gersh Kuntzman had to say on June 14, 2004...
http://www.keepmedia.com/pubs/Newsweek/2004/06/14/529834?extID=10032&oliID=213
Whether you're a liberal Democrat like me or a conservative Republican (you know, one of those people who annoy me), it's safe to say that you think this coming election presents the nation with a very clear choice: To dump Bush or not to dump Bush.
That's that? Nope... :)
RRedline
10-04-2004, 02:13 PM
Geez, people, I already read through the flamewar at fark.com on this subject. I am surprised that it is even being discussed here. I watched the video, and I am not the slightest bit convinced that Kerry broke any rules.
Bush came off as a total fool in the debate. Kerry clearly did a better job at explaining his opinions than Bush did. You can support Bush and his policies and still admit that his performance was awful.
I look forward to the next "debate" as it will deal with issues besides Iraq.
Not you...just the whole idea of Kerry cheating.
It's right out there with Bush's secret in-the-ear headset with Karl Rove guiding him along.
How do people come up with this crap? The cheating in front of 55 million people on live TV is just as believable as that email from Bill Gates promising me $1million for downloading winxp.exe and testing it out.
edit: I did a "POST REPLY"...that means reply to no singular post but addressing the topic of the thread.
You know, that's a really good point you make, Araina (btw, welcome aboard! FINALLY YOU SHOW UP :) ) - in an age where we have Tivo and huge HDTV screens and DVD-RW's as part of a home entertainment center, you'd think Mr. "Go see my website at JohnKerry.com" would realize that if he were stupid enough to cheat in plain site, it would get caught DIGITALLY, where it would be super easy to zoom in on the frame and possibly enhance the picture. My mom's 50 dollar dvd player is capable of zooming in on any image as much as you want to zoom in.
I'm not sure I'm buying this, and to be honest with you, I'm getting the impression that there's a hint of desperation in the air because Bush just performed so badly in this first debate.
efuseakay
10-04-2004, 02:34 PM
Geez, people, I already read through the flamewar at fark.com on this subject. I am surprised that it is even being discussed here. I watched the video, and I am not the slightest bit convinced that Kerry broke any rules.
Bush came off as a total fool in the debate. Kerry clearly did a better job at explaining his opinions than Bush did. You can support Bush and his policies and still admit that his performance was awful.
I look forward to the next "debate" as it will deal with issues besides Iraq.
What did Kerry pull out of his coat pocket then? You read the debate rules, correct?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Misu, Kerry obviously wasn't aware that there was a camera on the stage behind them in the "pool"... Remember, the media took issue with this, and put the cameras there anyway... that's why he reached when he did (he didn't know the cameras were there)... with his back to the audience, so (hopefully) nobody would see... Too bad for him many people did see... :)
Steve
10-04-2004, 02:44 PM
What does it matter? The breaking of a trivial rule is a trivial act. It's completely unimportant to the point of absurdity.
Frankly, if people are getting their knickers all in a twist over something as asinine as this, it doesn't say very much good about the quality of the debate.
Kerry had to have known cameras were back there - it was all that was being talked about on talk radio the Wednesday before the debate, and during the day before the debate. I knew on Wednesday afternoon (because I heard it on one of the talk radio stations I listen to here at work) that Fox had already stated they were not going to follow the filming demands of the agreement because they were not part of the agreement between the two candidates, and in fact I watched the debate on Foxnews (and tivo'd it) because they made such a big deal about NOT following the filming demands.
I dunno. If I knew there were going to be cameras everywhere, from all angles, and I'm a nobody, it just makes sense that Kerry would definately know about the cameras.
efuseakay
10-04-2004, 03:27 PM
What does it matter? The breaking of a trivial rule is a trivial act. It's completely unimportant to the point of absurdity.
Frankly, if people are getting their knickers all in a twist over something as asinine as this, it doesn't say very much good about the quality of the debate.
Well, if Kerry can't play by rules he agreed to, no matter how trivial you think they are... um... :)
I believe this quote says it best:
It’s sad that we’ve reached a place in our society where people can actually argue that a presidential candidate cheating in a debate isn’t a big deal and anyone who cares about it is nit-picking, ankle-biting, or (insert your term here).
Can you honestly say this wouldn't be a big deal if it was Bush that was caught on video doing this? No doubt "Bush is so stupid, he has to cheat... his daddy Cheney... his puppet master Rove... had to slip him a cheat sheet blah blah blah..." would be all over the MSM...
Misu... are you sure Kerry was aware of the camera issue? He does have a tendency to be out of touch you know... Lambert field and all... ;)
Steve
10-04-2004, 03:37 PM
I wouldn't care if Bush picked his nose and simultaneously farted "Yankee Doodle Dandee" while Kerry was rambling on about Vietnam or some such folderol.
The debates were trivialized by a trivial agreement with trivial rules. They didn't even succeed very well as photo ops.
It is sad that we've gotten to this point where what should be events of paramount importance play out as poorly-scripted comedy. I can only observe that the candidates are giving the public what they want: fodder to feed the demonizers.
RRedline
10-04-2004, 03:40 PM
What did Kerry pull out of his coat pocket then? You read the debate rules, correct?My best guess would be a pen, but I don't actually know, and neither do you. Also, I DON'T CARE, but appaerntly, YOU DO. As Steve pointed out, whatever it was, it was trivial and had no bearing on the debate. Are you suggesting that it did? Are you suggesting that, without a cheat sheet, Kerry would have been as much at a loss for words as Bush was? If it was a cheat sheet (BIG IF), it's a shame that he forgot to put Poland on it, because as we all know, Kerry forgot all about Poland. :(
Was it not also against the rules to interrupt the other speaker, which Bush did several times? Why did the Republicans insist on putting so much distance between the two candidates? I keep hearing how John Kerry is so concerned about his image, yet it was Bush who was ashamed of his height (and at 6' tall, he is still above average).
This is a pathetic attempt to discredit the validity of a debate which your candidate apparently lost. I suggest that Bush's team forgets the last debate and prepares W. for the next one.
AmeritecTech
10-04-2004, 04:02 PM
Well, if Kerry can't play by rules he agreed to, no matter how trivial you think they are... um... :)
I believe this quote says it best:
Can you honestly say this wouldn't be a big deal if it was Bush that was caught on video doing this? No doubt "Bush is so stupid, he has to cheat... his daddy Cheney... his puppet master Rove... had to slip him a cheat sheet blah blah blah..." would be all over the MSM...
Misu... are you sure Kerry was aware of the camera issue? He does have a tendency to be out of touch you know... Lambert field and all... ;)
The issue is trivial, but I'll play this ball game. Didn't Bush speak in the middle of Kerry's response regarding character issues? Didn't he say, "I'm trying to put a leash on them" referring to his daughters? I'm not going to bother with reading the debate rules, but I sincerely doubt that speaking during another candidate's response time is acceptable.
efuseakay
10-04-2004, 04:19 PM
The issue is trivial, but I'll play this ball game. Didn't Bush speak in the middle of Kerry's response regarding character issues? Didn't he say, "I'm trying to put a leash on them" referring to his daughters? I'm not going to bother with reading the debate rules, but I sincerely doubt that speaking during another candidate's response time is acceptable.
Hardly comparable to physically bringing in a banned item that would give one side an advantage over the other.
How would you feel if you studied all week for an exam, only to see someone next to you slip a cheat sheet out from their pocket?
AmeritecTech
10-04-2004, 04:21 PM
Hardly comparable to physically bringing in a banned item that would give one side an advantage over the other.
How would you feel if you studied all week for an exam, only to see someone next to you slip a cheat sheet out from their pocket?
Except that the Post has already determined that the item was a pen, not a notecard.
el scorcho
10-04-2004, 04:25 PM
ameritectech, you're forgetting, the pen that kerry brought onstage was a vital advantage. don't let a non-partisan outlook taint your views. republicans are right in this.
efuseakay
10-04-2004, 04:29 PM
ameritectech, you're forgetting, the pen that kerry brought onstage was a vital advantage. don't let a non-partisan outlook taint your views. republicans are right in this.
Why would he have to bring a pen with him, when there was one already on the lectern, per the rules?
What you said would make a little sense, if it actually were a pen.
ethics
10-04-2004, 04:31 PM
I am one of those people that is anal about a pen I use and always carry my own no matter if I know one will be provided for me.
AmeritecTech
10-04-2004, 04:31 PM
Why would he have to bring a pen with him, when there was one already on the lectern, per the rules?
What you said would make a little sense, if it actually were a pen.
The Post determined it was a pen based on a feed they were able to view. The Kerry campaign pleads guilty to Kerry pulling a pen from his pocket.
It was a pen. Why did he bring it with him? Why did Bush speak when it was Kerry's turn to speak? Who knows why they broke the rules, but they both did for trivial reasons.
tke711
10-04-2004, 04:42 PM
Why would he have to bring a pen with him, when there was one already on the lectern, per the rules?
What you said would make a little sense, if it actually were a pen.
I don't care if it was a pen in his pocked or he was just happy to see me. This entire "controversy" is so trivial to be humorous. Actually, 4 pages discussing this is what is hilarious.
el scorcho
10-04-2004, 04:44 PM
Without any evidence your arguments are nothing other than a partisan attack and little else. A story published by a traditionally conservative paper you attack for being written by a self-admitted liberal. Where does your opinion stand then as someone who is pro-Bush and anti-Kerry?
This is nothing but a tempest in a teapot.
aedumo
10-04-2004, 05:30 PM
Different opinions and rhetorical bullshit are totally different things. Kerry has no business holding political office if he can't explain exactly how he can do a better job. But he doesn't, all he does is SAY he can do better. Hell, I can say I can do a better job, but it doesn't mean I can.
amen to that
efuseakay
10-04-2004, 10:41 PM
This may come as a shock to many of you, but I was wrong.. this thread was a waste of time, but it's entertainment value was through the roof... Someone finally got a copy of that photo an audience member snapped right when he turned around...
Here it is...
http://homepage.mac.com/cfj/.Pictures/KerryPen.jpg
So, I was wrong, and the issue is settled now... I guess it's on to Kerry's Senate record... ;)
ethics
10-04-2004, 10:44 PM
I appreciate that admission more than some of the posts where members are right. ;)
efuseakay
10-04-2004, 10:47 PM
I appreciate that admission more than some of the posts where members are right. ;)
Hey now, be nice to those members! ;)
I don't have a problem with saying I was wrong... :)
Now, let's concentrate on what was in his right hand! :lol:
ethics
10-04-2004, 10:50 PM
Well, it's a personal pet peeve of mine when certain members can't admit they are wrong. It's as if with their admission they will melt like the wicked witch from the Oz. ;)
joseftu
10-04-2004, 10:53 PM
Thumbs up from me, efuseakay, for both the admission, and the entertainment value (which was immense!:))
efuseakay
10-04-2004, 11:26 PM
Um.. my math sucks... nevermind :D
Now, let's get on to more important issues like THIS (http://forum.johnkerry.com/index.php?showtopic=86801) one... ;)
el scorcho
10-05-2004, 11:07 AM
If Bush was wearing an ear peice call me Sally. :)
Steve
10-05-2004, 11:11 AM
Not only is the horse dead, we have the murder weapon and a signed confession from its killer.
Thread locked due to the growing stench from the poor horse's festering corpse ;)