Diesel or Hybrid?

[ethics]

From my blog (http://blog.globalaffairs.org/)...

Diesel or Hybrid?

http://blog.globalaffairs.org/images/uploads/05gm_hybrid_1-1.jpg

The year was 1988, I was just learning how to drive. As I squeezed in to a traffic on Staten Island's highway, there was a Mercedes Benz in front of puttering and causing all kinds of smelly, choking smoke. As I got closer to the Benz, I read the word "diesel" on the back of the car.

"Dad, this is a Mercedes, why would anyone want to buy a diesel?" He shrugged and I never got my answer.

I didn't re-visit the topic until Paul of Computer Cops (http://computercops.biz/) bought his diesel pick-up truck and did some calculations on gas savings. I was excited by the numbers in $$$ savings but the puttering, smoky Benz was still stuck in my mind. Then I read Google's blog and how they transport their employees to and from work on the biodiesel bus. (http://www.google.com/googleblog/)


We like things to be efficient and fast, so it's logical that we'd set up a shuttle service for all the Googlers driving to Mountain View from San Francisco every day. Doing it in a Googley way, we went a step further than providing a shuttle. Our bus runs on biodiesel fuel. This clean-burning alternative to gasoline is produced from renewable - and domestically grown - resources. Biodiesel contains no petroleum, is biodegradable, nontoxic, and essentially free of sulfur and aromatics. It has lower emissions than petroleum diesel, too. It's less toxic than table salt and biodegrades as fast as sugar.

It does cost more than regular diesel, but consider this: The Google shuttle carries an average of 155 employees a day. Each run totals about 75 miles - that's 11,625 miles a day we're not driving. If the average car gets 25 mpg, then we're saving some 465 gallons of gas a day, or 2,325 gallons a week - weekly savings of $4,998.75 (figuring $2.15/gallon).

Not too shabby, eh?

About a year ago, my good friend Tom (Biker on GA) and I had a discourse on whether or not hybrid cars can be the solution. You know, rely on our own technology and break away from being puppets to OPEC and the rest of the Middle East. He said he would never give up his truck. But what if that hybrid truck had same V8 power as the gasoline guzzler? (http://www.gm.com/company/gmability/edu_k-12/5-8/fc_energy/hybrid_pht.html)
More and more car dealers are making leaps, giant leaps, in to the making hybrid cars not only efficient but powerful.

I am very excited about what we will see in showrooms in about 2-3 years.

[Coot]

In 2006, Jeep will be coming out with a clean diesel that runs on low sulpher fuel. With its catalytic, it will be as clean as the current gas engines and with the added efficiency.

I ran the numbers about a month ago on a hydbrid, and even with the federal tax break, break even on the added cost is iffy. You have to drive a lot of miles to make it work out. Then there's the issue of the battery. If the electric drive battery goes on a Prius, it's $6800. I assume the same will be true for the highlander hybrid. For the hondas, they're guesstimating about $3K. With them being warranted for 80K miles on the hondas and 100K on the toyotas, you could easily be upside down in the vehicle.

Lastly, the EPA estimates for fuel efficiency have turned out to be substantially over optimistic; though once a driver becomes accustomed to the changes in driving habits required for these cars, it gets better, but certainly not what's being touted.

Still, it's a good stopgap technology, but if anyone is leaning towards going that route, be prepared for the letdown and lowered expectations.

[ethics]

Coot, I think the whole thing is in its infancy. And yet, I am elated about the progress in such time. I am even more grateful that the car makers have started openly going this route.

Demand from the consumer? I'd like to say that's the reason, but why not this technology back in Carter years?

[Coot]

We couldn't do it back in the Carter years, at least not very effectively or efficiently, in the case of the hybrids. The electric motor drive technology wasn't possible (I'm talking about the variable speed power supply for the motor). The embedded processors and controllers of that time, along with the power semiconductors just wouldn't get the job done.

We might have been able to brute force some kind of load sharing between the electric and the gas, but to do this right, you need fast processors and dense I/O architecture. As I recall, there were some experiments with hydraulics back in the day. If I recall, it involved some substantial accumulators and rotary actuators. I'm going on diminished memory here ;) but as I recall, this too had issues with processor capacity, and program storage limitations. Experiments with using deterministic feedback were far too sensitive to fluctuations in the operating environment itself.

Still, hybrid technology needs to go forward. It shouldn't be viewed as some kind of panacea though, but rather as an intermediary step.

As to Joe Consumer driving this? Probably not, at least not until it makes individual financial sense. This is one of those areas though, where I think it is the responsibility of government to stimulate technology. The vagaries of free market economics in this area will eventually get the job done, but not before national security and our economic well being has been beat up.

[ethics]

By the way, today's Straight Dope's topic is diesel fuel:

<i>Dear Straight Dope:

In this age of extremely high gas prices, I've noticed that
diesel is quite a bit cheaper than regular gasoline ($1.70
compared with $2.10 in Providence, RI). What would happen if
I put diesel into my gas tank? --Joe A.</i>

<b>SDSTAFF Una replies:

Let's start with the basics. Aside from additives such as
ethanol, which is made from corn, the gasoline and diesel
fuel commonly used today derive from the same source--crude
oil. Although they share the same parentage (just like motor
oil, some plastics, and Velveeta), they have very different
properties.

For more, see: </b>
http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mdieselvsgas.html

[tke711]

I have been one of those, "You'll take my gas car from my cold dead hands" type of people. However, with these always increasing gas prices, I've started changing my tune.

Considering that I put on 40,000 miles a year on my vehicle, there are some considerable savings for me by driving a hybrid or diesel vehicle.

Right now, since hybrid is still new (expensive) technology, I'm leaning to diesel.

[Biker]

Put my truck up against the same make and model that has a gasoline engine and I'll out pull, out haul, and STILL get better mileage. My original opinion still stands. Ain't given up that ol' stump hauler for anything.

Instead of Hybrid, which is still going to pollute the hell out of the environment (how the hell are they gonna retire all those old batteries?), the emphasis should be on biodiesel. It burns cleaner, gives the same amount of power, is actually BETTER for a diesel engine with greater lubricity, and cuts our reliance on big oil. Put our farmers back into business and burn the bean!