Pregnant Woman Counts as Two

[ethics]

By a vote of 254-163 (http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2004/roll031.xml), the House yesterday approved the Unborn Victims of Violence Act (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=2&u=/ap/20040226/ap_on_go_co/unborn_victims), under which attacking a pregnant woman counts as two separate assaults, one on her and one on her unborn child. Opponents argue that this somehow undermines the right to abortion:

Rep. Nita Lowey, D-N.Y., said it would be the first time in federal law that a fetus would be recognized as having the same rights as the born. The bill "is not about shielding pregnant women," she said. "It is and has always been about undermining freedom of choice."

The House, said Kate Michelman, president of NARAL Pro-Choice America, was "taking advantage of tragedy to promote the far-right agenda of trying to rob women of their right to choose."

The pro-life argument--which I oppose -- has always been that abortion is murder; Lowey and Michelman's view is that murder is abortion. :nut:

[Sir Joseph]

The thing I don't understand is that this bill clearly excludes abortion.
If a lady clearly intends to have this baby and is murdered, there really is a double murder. Abortion does not even come into play here.

[tke711]

This law already exists in a few states, including California, but of course, has become a huge deal now that the federal level is trying to adopt it.

[ShinyTop]

The law is ludicrous. Murdering of the mother is already a crime. Remediated murder is a capital offense. This fall into the same group as a hate crime. We are adding another law a feel good measure that does nothing to increase anybody's safety. If I were intent on murdering a pregnant lady her pregnancy adds nothing to my decision. If I did not know she was pregnant then there is no premeditation on the fetus and it should be a lesser crime so again makes no sense. We have too many damn laws anyway, so laws that do nothing to protect us are only adding to the overcrowded books.

Edited to add I understand a law that considers an assault on a fetus with intent to harm the fetus should be separate.

Re abortion. Pro abortion actiivists do not want anything to establish a fetus as a life before birth. I am pro abortion for reasons I have stated but think that reasoning is asinine.

[Plunge]

The thing I don't understand is that this bill clearly excludes abortion.
If a lady clearly intends to have this baby and is murdered, there really is a double murder. Abortion does not even come into play here.

It doesn't matter to radical abortion rights advocates. ANYTHING that gives ANY protection to the unborn is considered to be undermining abortion rights.

[Fiona]

we've touched on this before... and while I understand Shiny's point, I still go with the side that says it's an additional murder, not premeditated? okay, but still. I think it should be a separate crime. To me it's always been similar to the arsonist accidentally killing someone He/she didn't realize was in the building. If you one way or another cause the death of a woman's child... it should be under the same rules. :P sorry

by the way I'm pro-choice ;)

[FrankF]

... If I were intent on murdering a pregnant lady her pregnancy adds nothing to my decision...

Except in the case of a person two kills his pregnant wife and dumps her body in the San Francisco Bay, ridding himself of two problems. If he **cough** did that of course.

[joseftu]

Not that religious principles should have any role in deciding this type of legal question--but just as a point of interest...

Jewish law specifically distinguishes between a fetus and a born human being, with the fetus being considered valuable as a <b>potential</b> human being, but specifically <b>not</b> the same thing as a human life. The Torah specifically dictates that killing a fetus (while it is a civil wrong, and to be avoided if possible), is <b>not</b> murder.

Of course, as always in any discussion involving the status of a fetus, we're forced to rely on faith, belief, or opinion. There is no factual basis for considering a fetus the same, or not the same, as a human being. For that reason, I think secular law should remain neutral on the question.

[Bill Jackson]

"If I did not know she was pregnant then there is no premeditation on the fetus and it should be a lesser crime so again makes no sense."

Wrong again doc. Ever hear of the "Felony murder rule"?

Felony-murder rule definition – this is the rule whereby a death associated with a violent felony (http://www.legal-definitions.com/felony.htm), usually rape, burglary, or robbery, is murder even if there was no specific intent to murder.

http://www.legal-definitions.com/felony-murder.htm

[Neo]

Any such law must have at its core the question of viability. To be "cautious" viability can be set at the conservative side such as 7 or 8 months.