The Road to Peace??????

[BigDeputyDog]

Since June of 2001, more than 350 people have been killed by Palestinian suicide bombers.

Feb. 22: A bus in downtown Jerusalem, killing seven.

Jan. 29: A bus on Jerusalem's Gaza Street, killing 11 people.

Oct. 4, 2003: A seaside restaurant in Haifa, killing at least 19.

Sept. 9, 2003: Cafe Hillel in Jerusalem, killing seven.

Sept. 9, 2003: A bus stop near an army base outside Tel Aviv, killing eight Israeli soldiers.

Aug. 19, 2003: A bus in Jerusalem, killing 23.

June 11, 2003: A bus on Jerusalem's central Jaffa Street, killing 17.

May 18, 2003: A bus at Jerusalem's French Hill neighborhood, killing seven.

March 5, 2003: A bus in Haifa, killing 17.

Jan. 5, 2003: Two bombers strike the Neve Shaanan pedestrian mall in Tel Aviv, killing 23.

Nov. 21, 2002: A bus in Jerusalem, killing 11.

Oct. 21, 2002: A bus at the Karkur Junction in northern Israel, killing 14.

Aug. 4, 2002: A bus at the Meron Junction in northern Israel, killing eight.

June 19, 2002: French Hill intersection in Jerusalem, killing seven.

June 18, 2002: Patt Junction in southern Jerusalem, killing 19.

June 5, 2002: Bus near Megiddo Junction in northern Israel, killing 17.

May 7, 2002: A pool hall in the Tel Aviv suburb of Rishon Letzion, killing 15.

April 10, 2002: A bus in Haifa, killing eight.

March 31, 2002: A restaurant in Haifa, killing 15.

March 27, 2002: A hotel dining room during a ritual Seder meal at the start of Passover in the city of Netanya, killing 29.

March 20, 2002: A bus near village of Kfar Musmus, killing seven.

March 9, 2002: Jerusalem's Moment Cafe, killing 11.

March 2, 2002: Jerusalem's Ultra-Orthodox Mea Shearim neighborhood, killing 11.

Dec. 2, 2001: A bus in the coastal city of Haifa, killing 15.

Dec. 1, 2001: Two bombers strike Jerusalem's Ben Yehuda pedestrian mall, killing 11.

Aug. 9, 2001: Sbarro pizzeria in Jerusalem, killing 15.

June 1, 2001: The entrance of the Dolphinarium seaside disco in Tel Aviv - killing 21, mostly teenagers.


This certainly speaks volumes to the desire of Palestinians to negotiate a peaceful settlement.

Is there any wonder why the Israelis need the protective barrier?? :eek:

BDD...

[Violet1966]

It's such a sin that these two sides can't come to an agreement. Many people dying needlessly. I hope one day for peace in that area. Too bad they can't clone the damn area and set it side by side with one another, to give each side their own exact area. Then they'll still be fighting over the other side. No end to this madness :cry:

[ethics]

Nice compiled list, Bdd. Puts things in perspective.

[Copzilla]

To put an end to the violence, one has to understand the root cause of it in the first place. It's not caused by property lines, contrary to popular beliefs. It's caused by hatred, which is preached from birth by the religious and cultural leaders.

[David McDuff]

To put an end to the violence, one has to understand the root cause of it in the first place. It's not caused by property lines, contrary to popular beliefs. It's caused by hatred, which is preached from birth by the religious and cultural leaders.

Are you sure? Might it not be caused by murderers, and those who give them backing? To hate is one thing, but to murder is another - and to murder systematically and cold-bloodedly, as the Nazis did, and as the Palestinian terrorists are doing, is yet another.


Netanyahu: Palestinian terrorism should be on trial
By TOVAH LAZAROFF
THE HAGUE

Finance Minister Binyamin Netanyahu on Monday delivered a sharp message to the International Court of Justice in The Hague, currently debating Israel's security fence.

"It is not the killers and their dispatchers who are put on trial, it is the victims. We shouldn't be in The Hague on trial. It's the Palestinian terror regime and terrorist organizations that should be there. That's the right order of things," Netanyahu said.

Speaking at a tourism conference in Jerusalem, Netanyahu said he had a message for those sitting on the court. "You have no right to serve as the moral conscience of the Jewish people. We have our own conscience. Now our conscience tells us that saving our own lives is more important than preserving somebody else's quality of life. Quality of life is always amenable to improvement. Death is permanent," he said.

Netanyahu said Israel was working to save the lives of Jewish people. "However, respected judges in Europe are claiming that the Jewish state has no right to defend itself from murderers."


(from Jerusalem Post)

[Copzilla]

Are you sure? Might it not be caused by murderers, and those who give them backing? To hate is one thing, but to murder is another - and to murder systematically and cold-bloodedly, as the Nazis did, and as the Palestinian terrorists are doing, is yet another.That's what I'm referring to, David, they're murdering not because they want any land. They're murdering because they HATE. That is nothing but pure blind hatred, and is not worthy of the pandering some want to give it... Like the World Court Netanyahu derides.

[Violet1966]

I've said some things about this before so why not again? I really feel this is all about land. The fact that Israel wants their land back that was taken away from them sooooo long ago, and the Palestinians can't deal with the fact that their land is being taken from them. Now this all should have blown over and gotten patched up with some good deals of money or something, but they stand firm ground on not wanting to give up land with people who are so different then themselves. They can't deal with this so they kill.

Just to refresh some memories with this all...who killed first in all this? I see dates back to 2001 above, but I know it's been going on for much much longer than that. :(

Edit: is this accurate? http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH0ldc0

Edit: Or is this? http://www.geocities.com/amirah_palestine/Letter_To_The_israelis.html

Edit again: Was this what caused the first suicide bombing? http://massmurder.zyns.com/baruch_goldstein.htm

[David McDuff]

but I know it's been going on for much much longer than that. :(



It certainly has. And it might be worth taking the following into account:

The Pittsburgh Dispatch for July 15 1889 reported that ”30 000 out of 40 000 persons i Jerusalem are Jews ”, the others being mainly Christians, Armenians and Muslims. The population figures confirmed by Vital Cuinets in 1895 show 37.853 Christians, 55.823 Muslims and 59.431 Jews.

Since 250 AD there have been small Jewish settlements around Jerusalem. After Jewish immigration, cultivation of the deserts and swamps and the creation of new jobs, the Arabic population grew by 400 percent between the years 1893 to 1947.

The so-called Palestinian people has no distinct history, culture or language of its own.

The Arabs did not come to the region of Palestine until the Muslim conquests of the seventh century. The Arabs were few, and their numbers were much reduced by epidemics. The history of the period indicates that the real Arabic conquerors were wiped out by disease before the middle of 640 AD.

The fall in the population induced a Muslim regent to bring in people from the world outside. The whole of Palestine developed into a melting pot of ethnic chaos. Turks, Negroes, Slavs, Greeks, Syrians, Egyptians, Armenians, Italians, Persians, Kurds, Afghans, Cherkessians, Bosnians, Bulgarians, Georgians, Indians, Vikings, Danes, Frisians, Russians, Nubians, and others arrived and settled.

The 1911 edition of Encyclopedia Britannica states that at the beginning of the 20th century the multi-ethnic nature of Palestine led to the presence of "not less than 50 languages" in the area.

The Jewish immigration to Palestine began around 1880, and was very limited because of the restrictions imposed by the Turkish authorities on Jews, restrictions that did not apply to Arabs from the surrounding countries. Arabs moved to Palestine because the Jews had cultivated the land and established industry, creating many jobs, which gave the Arabs better conditions than those that prevailed in their own countries.

[Violet1966]

Very nice summary thank you David. I understand but I still don't. It just makes no sense to me, for one little area of people, with no friends for thousands of miles as far as other countries, (I think that's the way it is at least, from what I've read or heard), to be sitting there being slaughtered to leave? Why not just leave? What does it take to win this battle???? More death? How much more death does there have to be? It's a losing battle...and the stats above aren't anything to smile about. Those are real people, who've died.

To me it seems like one of those cartoons where you see some big clutzy fuzzy animation sticking his finger into a metal fan over and over and getting a boo boo. Kinda seems rediculous as this "occupation" seems to fuel the whole battle of the muslims. Our hands are filthy with this one, and we've suffered too.

The only end to this one, is going to be when all muslims and arabs are extinct. I can't see that day.

The solution? Where does it end? What would make Israel and Palestine happy?

[David McDuff]

It just makes no sense to me, for one little area of people, with no friends for thousands of miles as far as other countries, (I think that's the way it is at least, from what I've read or heard), to be sitting there being slaughtered to leave? Why not just leave?

Leave for where? The Jewish people had a very, very bad experience of Europe, where they were slaughtered in millions. So where should they go? Israel has a population of some 6 million people. It's surrounded by an Arab world some 290 million strong. Is it too much to ask that Jews - who have developed the area in which they live and provided jobs for Arab people - should be allowed to live in peace?

Unfortunately anti-Semitism is a global sickness, and not just a problem that can be "solved", unless it's in human hearts.

[Sierra Mike]

Leave for where? The Jewish people had a very, very bad experience of Europe, where they were slaughtered in millions. So where should they go? Israel has a population of some 6 million people. It's surrounded by an Arab world some 290 million strong. Is it too much to ask that Jews - who have developed the area in which they live and provided jobs for Arab people - should be allowed to live in peace?

Unfortunately anti-Semitism is a global sickness, and not just a problem that can be "solved", unless it's in human hearts.
I have a plan.

The Irsraelis move everything of intrinsic value to the US. They then scorch the earth, and immigrate to the US. Leave our diaper-headed friends with nothing but some crispy ocean-front property.

I know this is inane, but really, the US is the only place they could go. And if they should ever happen to leave--yeah, right, that's gonna happen--then they should definitely take everything with them, and destroy anything they cannot.

One telling thing, though: 290M vs 6M, and the diaper heads still can't get it right.

SM

[ethics]

Believe me, I've often fantasize of having the Jews leave Israel, albeit temporarily, just to show the world what would happen.

Then I smack myself out of delusion in to thinking the hatred of the Jews has something to do with Israel.

[Sierra Mike]

It's got nothing to do with Israel, but the chances of Palestinians continuing homicide bombings against US Israelis would probably leave a bitter taste in their mouth after the first squadron of Warthogs worked over the West Bank.

SM

[Violet1966]

I say give the Jewish people part of Alaska. Let them live in peace and prosper and become part of our country and leave all the death and hatred behind. It just makes me sick to no end, to think that they will never be able to stop this bloodshed, and they will stand their ground and always be killed there. It's a battle that will never end, and just might be the end of the world? I hope not...but the way things are going with involvement and hatred towards "sympathizers", things aren't looking too good. :(

[joseftu]

Alaska?

How about Antarctica?

Seriously...there is no other place for the Jewish people. Israel is our home. It's our only home on this Earth, the only place where we can have security.

There is no other place. The US is not going to give up Alaska, or absorb 6 million immigrants--especially not Jews. The Jews can't just come to the US, because the US <b>doesn't want us</b>. They, and every other nation on Earth, proved that by turning away so many of us when they knew (<b>knew</b>) what the Nazis intended to do to us.

That's the whole problem. The world has proven, again and again, that Jews are not really welcome. The only place we're guaranteed a permanent welcome is in a country of our own. That's Israel.

I have to agree with David, Copzilla, and Leon here. The Palestinians (the most extreme of them, at least, there are always exceptions and it's dangerous to generalize) don't just want us out of Israel...they want us out of everywhere. And they're not alone in that opinion.

[ethics]

:holyshit: Are my eyes deceiving me or has Joe agreed with me?!?!?!

[joseftu]

I'll say it again...
"Even a broken clock is right twice a day!"
:)

[Sierra Mike]

I disagree that the Israelis couldn't find a home in the US. They would just have to become US citizens.

You might disagree, Perfesser, but one has only to examine your lineage and address to determine I might be more correct than not.

However, of course, the Israelis would loathe to give up their own country, for which I cannot blame them.

SM

[ethics]

Seriously, Steve? You think that US would be willing to devote a state (even a remote one -- and not really the most climate comforting-- as Alaska?) to 6 million Jews?

[Sierra Mike]

Seriously, Steve? You think that US would be willing to devote a state (even a remote one -- and not really the most climate comforting-- as Alaska?) to 6 million Jews?
No. The US won't part with any territory, nor should it. But the US could absolutely absorb 6 million Jews as citizens. I do seem to recall something similar occurring with Vietnamese boat people. :)

SM

[ethics]

I can't disagree with you. Although, I am sure it will make KKK and other racist bastards a bit more popular since the boogey man mentality of more Jews coming to the US will be prevalent in many counties.

[joseftu]

Actually, Steve, my grandfather was refused permission to immigrate. He couldn't get a visa--the US had quotas in place limiting the number of Jews they would accept.

He was able to make his way from Hungary, to Paris, to Canada, and then crossed illegally into the US. He found ways, once he was here, to get some of his relatives into this country (some legally, some illegally) and a few others to South America. The rest were murdered. All of them.

So I would say that my own lineage and my address are very good evidence for my belief that the US would not be a welcoming home for everyone. I'm glad that my grandfather made it, of course. But there were many, many, others who would have been saved if we had had a state of Israel.

Read the story of the S.S. St. Louis http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Holocaust/stlouis.html . This would have been a great time for the US government to prove its willingness to accept Jewish refugees. It didn't work that way. Cuba turned them down--the US was asked for help--Nope, sorry. Rules are rules.

The US does a much better job (and historically often has) than any other country in welcoming immigrants and refugees. But there's absolutely no guarantee.

As you say, in any case, giving up one's own country is a very drastic (suicidal, in this case) step.

[Violet1966]

Alaska?

How about Antarctica?

Seriously...there is no other place for the Jewish people. Israel is our home. It's our only home on this Earth, the only place where we can have security.

There is no other place. The US is not going to give up Alaska, or absorb 6 million immigrants--especially not Jews. The Jews can't just come to the US, because the US <b>doesn't want us</b>. They, and every other nation on Earth, proved that by turning away so many of us when they knew (<b>knew</b>) what the Nazis intended to do to us.

That's the whole problem. The world has proven, again and again, that Jews are not really welcome. The only place we're guaranteed a permanent welcome is in a country of our own. That's Israel.

I have to agree with David, Copzilla, and Leon here. The Palestinians (the most extreme of them, at least, there are always exceptions and it's dangerous to generalize) don't just want us out of Israel...they want us out of everywhere. And they're not alone in that opinion.


Well if I had said any highly populated area, that can't be sectioned off to make Israel feel like they are truly a nation, it might have been taken as not truly wanting to give up something for the cause of others. As far as I know, Alaska isn't as populated and can be successfully adapted to make someone feel it's all theirs. I thought it more fair then offering up Florida...which Floridians could much better offer. How bout some land in NH? I wouldn't mind it one bit. It's not the warmest place either....but is more temperate.

So we're back to square one...devise a plan to make Israel work (edit: as to not missunderstand...succeed),with it's neighbors, without pissing them off further and without having to annhilate them. It just seems impossible and more death is to come unfortunately, for many years to come. I see no end. Do you? :(

[Violet1966]

As you say, in any case, giving up one's own country is a very drastic (suicidal, in this case) step.

Why suicide? Is it really believed that if Israel went somewhere else, and was declared a country with friendly neighbors who support them more then the Arabs, that they would die off or something? :huh:

And is Israel a country? I thought it was a state as I've recently been reminded? Why can't it get country status?

[Sierra Mike]

Joe, what happened in your grandfather's day is terrible, but completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

I daresay that if the US and Israeli governments decided that Israel and Israelis were about to be rubbed out, then they could definitely come to an agreement about relocation. I don't see this as something that would happen any day soon, but the day might come when those 290 million Jew-hating Arabs decide to all walk in the same direction on the same day, and nuclear weapons notwithstanding, then that would effectively spell the end for Israel. And a fair portion of the Middle East, but hey, they gets what they paid for.

Leon, I don't know. The KKK has always been less than even marginal in my life. I can confirm that in the Wiregrass Territory of Alabama, where lies Ft. Rucker, they are alive and well. In just about every other region I've been to (and this does include Texas), I've rarely heard a peep about them. Maybe BDD, CopZ, and Sarge can give us some details from their particular locales, but I do not see a huge outpouring of anti-Semitism busting the dam here in America. We're more resilient than that.

As for as what other countries think? Do I seem to act like your normal internationlist lately? No one in the Middle East likes us anyway, and whether the Israelis move to the US or get blasted off the face of the earth does not matter. We are Objective #2. Only those on the far left or those busily engrossed in conducting their own proctological examinations cannot see this. I think we can fairly well deduce from examining all available evidence that these people a motley collection of tools and nimrods who are in dire need of an easy-reader primer on life.

And finally, I've met Jews I didn't like, and they were almost all the overly-erudite, moneyed, dismissive Jewish American Princes/Princesses. I dislike them on an individual basis, because I found these folks to be mean-spirited, black-hearted, status-seeking lichen feeders who view former public servants as myself as lowly vassals created to do their bidding. By the way, when I came out of the Army and began doing some work for Anthony Quinn and his son Lorenzo, I met plenty of Irish, Italian, Spanish, British, fill-in-your-favorite-ethnicity-here folks with exactly the same characteristics, and I abhorred them all. This is perhaps one reason why I never made it with in the Upper East Side circuit. But again, these are individual assessments, not ethnically-based ones. I'm hardly the sharpest knife in the drawer, so if I can make this distinction, then it's highly likely several million of my countrymen can, too.

SM

[joseftu]

"State" in this case is just another word for "country." Israel is a sovereign state, a nation, just like France, Germany, or Italy (or the US).

I meant that for the Jews to have <b>no</b> country would be suicidal. I don't think that having a country in a different geographical location would be necessarily suicidal.

However, I know you're looking for a solution, Violet--but this just won't fly. The Jewish connection to Israel is much deeper, and of a longer history, than any Floridian (or New Hampshirean?) has to Florida.

I think we've all heard of the tragedy of the Trail of Tears, when the Cherokee were forcibly marched across the country from their own homeland in Georgia (and surrounding) to Oklahoma. Do you think that having their reservation in Oklahoma, where at least no one was trying to kill them, was a good consolation prize for them? I don't think so.

[joseftu]

I daresay that if the US and Israeli governments decided that Israel and Israelis were about to be rubbed out, then they could definitely come to an agreement about relocation.
It didn't happen before...when it was clear that the Jews were about to be rubbed out. That's the relevance of my grandfather's story. On whose word should we accept that <b>this time</b> the US would step up and do the right thing to save Jews from being killed?

I do not see a huge outpouring of anti-Semitism busting the dam here in America.
Pretty to think so.

But again...where's the guarantee? Experience seems to show exactly the opposite.

Let's hope we never have to find out.

[Sierra Mike]

But again...where's the guarantee? Experience seems to show exactly the opposite.

Let's hope we never have to find out.
How many Arab-Americans were killed by us after 9/11?

You ask me, I think this nation has matured in ways you'll never want to give it credit for.

SM

[joseftu]

You're right, we've matured. And I do give credit. I only question how much improvement there has been, and how much farther we still have to go! And I question just how much I (or anyone) should risk based on that. Things are better, easier, for Jews in this country (at least in many parts of this country) than they were in even my own childhood. But would you want to stake your life, or your children's life on that improvement?

Ask anyone who was in NYC during the Crown Heights riots just how close anti-Semitism can be from bursting the dam.

In another thread, when I claimed a decline in anti-Semitism in this country from the 60's to the present, Leon was quick to point out that it could well be that only open expression of this hatred has declined. His contention (and I was hard put to disagree, really) was that there is every possibility that beneath the surface, the same level of anti-semitism, or more, could well be lurking.

[ethics]

And I stand by that statement...I am not as optimistic as SM is. In NY, sure, outside, in the majority of the cities. All one needs is to scratch that surface. I base that on personal opinion and many of my friends who live outside of big cities.

[Sierra Mike]

And it could very well be that open expression of hatred has declined. But until we invent Thought Control, we'll never know, will we?

As I've already said, there were plenty of Jews I hated. But not because they were Jewish, but because they were damaged goods that only propagated their own self-defeating stereotypes. And like I also said, if I can make this distinction, then there must be others out there with a lot more on the ball who can do this as well.

Bottom line: If this science-fiction story ever comes to pass, the US is the only hope for Israel. If you determine there is a more suitable candidate, let's hear it. Maybe Canada?

SM

[ethics]

How many Arab-Americans were killed by us after 9/11?


Steve, if it were the Jews who committed the atrocity like 9.11.01, I invision the revenge factor to be a lot higher on Jews than they were on the Muslims.

I don't have anything to back it up other than a feeling.

[Sierra Mike]

Steve, if it were the Jews who committed the atrocity like 9.11.01, I invision the revenge factor to be a lot higher on Jews than they were on the Muslims.

I don't have anything to back it up other than a feeling.
Well, you're pointing to suspicion where I point to facts. Defend what has not happened if you must, but I'm not buying any, no matter how good the price.

I've operated with IDF before, and while cocky mofos, they always had it on the ball.

Also operated with certain Islamic "allies" who cursed us the entire time. From that alone, I know who I'll be standing with. Hell, if push comes to shove, I'll even go fly Apache for the IDF, if they can stand the thought of a gentile putting steel on target downrange.

SM

[joseftu]

Steve, if it were the Jews who committed the atrocity like 9.11.01, I invision the revenge factor to be a lot higher on Jews than they were on the Muslims.

I don't have anything to back it up other than a feeling.
What a terrible thought! (and don't say it too loudly...there are far too many who <b>already</b> blame the Jews!)

[joseftu]

Hell, if push comes to shove, I'll even go fly Apache for the IDF, if they can stand the thought of a gentile putting steel on target downrange.

SMGentile, shmentile! Just hit the target! :)

[Violet1966]

Leon, I don't know. The KKK has always been less than even marginal in my life. I can confirm that in the Wiregrass Territory of Alabama, where lies Ft. Rucker, they are alive and well. In just about every other region I've been to (and this does include Texas), I've rarely heard a peep about them. Maybe BDD, CopZ, and Sarge can give us some details from their particular locales, but I do not see a huge outpouring of anti-Semitism busting the dam here in America. We're more resilient than that.



I'll never forget my very first visit into the state of Connecticut as a teen, in the car of my boyfriend's best friend, at about the age of 14. I think it was like 1982 or so. Well we drove into downtown Danbury (I think if I recall correctly),and I was scared to death. We were on our way to his father's house. Right there in the middle of town, were people on the island in the middle of traffic, all robed in white sheets!!! I asked what they were, really knowing inside, and was told it was the kkk. I was terrified and started to cry and I'm white!!!! I couldn't believe that the kkk was alive and well in of all places, Connecticut!!!??? I'll never forget that day. It was something that made me more aware of my surroundings. :(

[Sierra Mike]

Gentile, shmentile! Just hit the target! :)
Oh, guaranteed. ;) I can tell who's friend and foe!

SM

[ethics]

Unfortunately, the only facts I have are not numerous in quantity but I think they speak volumes. The fact that The Elder Protocol of Zions is the best selling book in Middle East is one thing, but when a country like France has a Conspiracy Theory on 9.11.01 which includes the Jews (namely Israelis) knowing what went on and even implicated in the event doing, my ears perk up.

But this isn't America, and I agree that we are not as bad as Europeans, at least not yet. But I do recall many Americans implicating Jews on 9.11.01. They wanted to bad to believe that it wasn't the Muslims but the Jews that some one them came out of the molds (http://www.nightclubcity.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=24019). Again, I can't tell you anything about a mass movement ala Nazis, but you won't see it because it's subversive these days and not cool, hip. But it's there, waiting for the right political atmosphere.

[Violet1966]

Unfortunately, the only facts I have are not numerous in quantity but I think they speak volumes. The fact that The Elder Protocol of Zions is the best selling book in Middle East is one thing, but when a country like France has a Conspiracy Theory on 9.11.01 which includes the Jews (namely Israelis) knowing what went on and even implicated in the event doing, my ears perk up.

But this isn't America, and I agree that we are not as bad as Europeans, at least not yet. But I do recall many Americans implicating Jews on 9.11.01. They wanted to bad to believe that it wasn't the Muslims but the Jews that some one them came out of the molds (http://www.nightclubcity.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=24019). Again, I can't tell you anything about a mass movement ala Nazis, but you won't see it because it's subversive these days and not cool, hip. But it's there, waiting for the right political atmosphere.

Wow I remember the news reports of the white van. I never knew the story though. Weird.

"Despite the denials, sources tell ABCNEWS there is still debate within the FBI over whether or not the young men were spies. Many U.S. government officials still believe that some of them were on a mission for Israeli intelligence. But the FBI told ABCNEWS, "To date, this investigation has not identified anybody who in this country had pre-knowledge of the events of 9/11." "

Well isn't there some further conspiracy, that there were actually warning signs of this event to happen, and our government dropped the ball?

I have yet to read this...but have to now. Just to see what the discoveries actually were. Not that we'd ever know the truth if it was to be hidden, but it should make for an interesting read.

http://www.gpoaccess.gov/serialset/creports/911.html
Congressional Reports: Joint Inquiry into Intelligence Community Activities before and after the Terrorist Attacks of September 11, 2001

[Sierra Mike]

Unfortunately, the only facts I have are not numerous in quantity but I think they speak volumes. The fact that The Elder Protocol of Zions is the best selling book in Middle East is one thing, but when a country like France has a Conspiracy Theory on 9.11.01 which includes the Jews (namely Israelis) knowing what went on and even implicated in the event doing, my ears perk up.
So I guess we can also presume there might be something to the stories of Bush having foreknowledge of the event, and allowing it to happen, so he could give his fat-cat buddies in Halliburton a slice of pie for Christmas?

By no means am I or have I ever stated that there aren't nutjobs in this country. But they're a marginalized group, essentially powerless and unable as well as incapable to dictate policy and affect social changes.

Let us also not forget that American Jews are damned well organized. And that American support for Israel has, over all these years, been generally consistent.

SM