Yet Another Terrorist Attack

[ethics]

Here's the video of the aftermath (http://switch3.castup.net/cunet/gm.asp?format=wm&s=C9CE3CEBD341410FACBEFAABD8F66FE0&ci=22958&ak=null&ClipMediaID=28655). (very graphic)

[ethics]

As one poster in a web site commented:

I don't know how the people of Israel are so passive that they haven't demanded that their elected officials wage total war on the "Palestinians." This video shows the results of being more concerned with world opinion than with protecting Israeli children and parents.

Never again, my ass. It is happening again.

Why are Israelis not in the streets by the million demanding that total war be fought to make sure that this never happens again. And on the day that they release hundreds of prisoners. I don't get it. Does Israel have a latent death wish almost as powerful as the overt Palistinian one?

I'm sorry if this sounds callous or disrespectful to my Israelis friends, but how is it that the Israeli public is not taking their leaders to task? The means to prevent most of these attacks is there, why not the will?

I don't understand.

Wasn't the whole idea behind Zionism and the establishment of the state of Israel to not be at the mercy of other nations and peoples, to be in control of their own security and well-being. If that was the whole point, why is this being allowed to happen?

Do the Israelis really care more about what Russian, French, Malaysian, Colombian, American, Syrian, English, Sudanese, and Latvians think than they do that Shmuel is blown apart, Alex is shredded into hundred of pieces, Elad is blinded and paralyzed, Anna is burned over more of her body than not, puncture holes from shrapnel cover Idan's body, the last breath is drawn by David's lungs and Vitslav is shot in the face. Where's the fucking outrage? Why are there no protests of millions in the streets?
-------------

I wonder myself but I think I know the answer.

[Sir Joseph]

I think there are a couple of reasons.
Firstly, the left in Israel is as dumb or even dumber as the left here.
Secondly, and perhaps more importantly, is that Israel is a Jewish state. Once you understand that, everything else falls into place.

[Sierra Mike]

Why does the fact that Israel is a Jewish state matter? I'd be out in the streets looking for some payback, regardless!

SM

[Coot]

You really couldn't blame Israel if it rolled tanks and heavy equipment through every corner of the Palestinian areas, levelling every last building and hovel. Keep the heat on until the Palestinians themselves gave up every last Hamas, Hezbollah, Fatah and Al Aksa Martyrs Brigade terrorist and leader in those areas. It should be patentedly clear that nothing is going to change and this isn't going to stop until it is more painful to the palestinians to continue than it would be to stop and accept peace.

[ethics]

Why does the fact that Israel is a Jewish state matter? I'd be out in the streets looking for some payback, regardless!

SM
Same here. I'd put my life on the line in order to defend the innocent civilians. Not just lay there and sacrifice like a bloody pig either.

[civax]

Since I feel the initial question raised by Leon is somewhat addressed to me, I'll try to answer.

I'm not on the street cause.. well... it wouldn't help.

We tried 'waging total war'. Didn't work.
We tried peace agreements. Nope.
We tried force again. Zilch.
We tried agreements AND force. Null.

We basically tried everything. Nothing changed.
So most of us here are pretty apathic about whatever going to happen. You see, many argues the Palestinians have no hope. Well, we're losing ours as well. We're a country that changed 5 governments in 10 years. Some were Left, some were Right - and still nothing changed.

The only thing that have not been attempted yet is a true peace. But then again, such a thing has proven to be impossible to reach time and time again. I guess it's back to 'You'll slap me, I'll slap you' and 'Look world, I'm the bigger victim' games.

Tomorrow we'll go, demolish some houses, get into a gun fight, kill a few terrorists, hear some shouts from Europe, build the fence, demolish it, build it again few meters away, ensure the Americans we're in control, catch a few more terrorists, kill 2 kids accidentally, apologize, have some demonstrations, worry about the economy, have another terror attack, watch the news, tell the world 'we told you so', the right will demand to deport Arafat, the left will want to stop the curfews, Sharon will want the press to go easy on his bribe scandal, we'll have some breakfast, dinner, supper, go to sleep, wake up, go to work...

Call me apatic. I'm just tired. That's all, just tired.

[mikepd]

Waged 'total war'? No sorry, do not buy it. There are still Arabs within the borders of the state of Israel and as long as that is allowed to exist, the events done yet again today will continue. A choice has to be made and I do not think Israelis and their government are capable of making it.

You must visit upon the terrorists even greater terror than they visit upon you and to hell with world opinion. As was stated in another thread, there are some in this world who when they say they want to kill all of you mean exactly just that.

You must respond accordingly.

[Coot]

Exactly Mike.

I was unable to connect to the video this morning when I first posted. Having now watched it, I have to wonder why there any Palestinians still alive. While annhilation obviously isn't going to happen, something severe should be the consequences. Something so terrible that their hatred is replaced with abject and pathetic resignation and surrender.

[ethics]

Mike and Coot, precisely right.

Ohad, I don't buy that Israel waged war with Arabs, the Arabs have been doing all the offense, since 1948. The Jews have been beating them back and then think that they are safe and sound as long as they can defend.

In life, the best defense is offense.

[Sierra Mike]

Grim, boys, very grim.

I'm all for putting the pressure on the PA until they reign these people in. It can be done, if they want it badly enough. No other way.

SM

[Steve]

There are still Arabs within the borders of the state of Israel...The problem, as I understand it, is that most of those Arabs are Israeli citizens, protected by the same constitution that protects the jews.

A weak analogy would be the U.S. government going after all of the domestic terrorism/skinhead/white supremacy groups with extreme prejudice, totally ignoring the rule of law and their Constitutional protections.

It may be a satisfying thing to do, and may garner results, but it's a mighty hard large pill to swallow.

[ethics]

These aren't Israeli Arabs, Steve, hence why Israel is building a wall. Most of the Israeli Arabs want peace.

[civax]

Hmmm.. Quite amusing, actually, to read the comments here now...

On any usual post you guys consider implications, point to the difficulties and to the different point of views. Funny to watch you guys talking like... well... Israelis after an attack.

My previous post was to answer Leon's questions why aren't we Israelis on the streets demanding revenge. I was not presenting any official stand or anything, I just explaining what most of us, ordinary Israelis, feels like.

As you may know, IDF did a limited operation in Beit-Lehem this morning (first entry to the city since it passed to the PA security forces at July 1st 2003). A couple of wanted found, but that's mostly all.

You guys might be under the fresh memory of what you've seen in the video, though I personally have found nothing really gory in it (well, maybe cause I'm a medic and seen worse). But for many of us here this is the same old reality. It's not *A* shocking sight, it's *THE SAME* shocking sight. hmm... Hey, maybe we're all just nationally traumatized and that's why we're so apathic... I might be on to something here!

Anyway, I can't see any serious changes coming up in near future. The media here in Israel keeps saying that Sharon wants to keep low profile so it will be all the Palestinian's fault the Road Map died, and then he'll execute his one-sided separation where we decide our final boundaries, build the fence and probably declare new attacks are not terror but a conventional war.

Still, I wonder what Sharon's going to do with all the facilities the Palestinians are getting from Israel (water, electricity, phones and most of the oil and fuel). The Shabak (Internal secret service) warned all these years against cutting those down so no one did so. Still, a separation is a separation...

The palestinians already fear this step and said that if it will happen they will demand 1 country which the majority is arab. I just wonder who will they demand it from, no one in Israel will do anything but laught at the idea...

[civax]

These aren't Israeli Arabs, Steve, hence why Israel is building a wall. Most of the Israeli Arabs want peace.

Hmm, actually Leon, Steve is somewhat right. The debate in Israel is on the current route that Sharon wants. The current one sometimes 'swallows' whole Palestinian villages (not Israeli Arabs) into the Israeli side. In other cases it splits some villages to 2.

It's even more problematic in Jerusalem where Otef Yerushalim ('warps Jerusalem' in a free translation) adds a very dense arab population to the city which is not considered Israeli.

Sharon is also about to remove at least 7 serious settlements in the territories which plans not to include in the fence. It's also good to mention that the army opposing the current route on grounds that it contains too many curves and make a very long fence which the army has not enough personnel to secure. But then again, that's a subject for a whole new post. :)

P.S. Leon, will you stop calling it a 'wall' ? It's a *Fence*. Out of the 700 Km route only *3* Km in total are wall and that's cause they are near roads the palestinians are shooting on. All the rest is just plain fence and wire.

[Sir Joseph]

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1075349812689&p=1008596981749
Here's yet another reason why the UN should just move to Africa. My tax dollars going to support the UN makes me ill.

[ethics]

Security Council diplomats failed to agree on a press statement condemning the suicide bombing of a bus in Jerusalem, which Israel called "outrageous." Council diplomats said three hours of closed-door negotiations Thursday fell apart when Algeria, the only Arab nation on the council, insisted that any statement must also condemn the deaths of eight Palestinians in an Israeli incursion into Gaza City on Wednesday.




Advocat, Bob Harris? Any questions on why UN should get the flock out of NYC?

[Robert Harris]

Advocat, Bob Harris? Any questions on why UN should get the flock out of NYC?

Complete non sequitor, sir.

If the UN moved to Damascus, say, or the Moon, would that chenge its membership or decidions to something you would like better?

[Sir Joseph]

At least we'd be able to build some office building on the East Side and save some money with police protection.

[ethics]

What SJ said. Moving it will not fix it, but it will stop draining our resources for something as corrupt and inefficient.

Plus, it will send a message to the world finally putting UN where it belongs.

New York is simply too good for the UN.