Wonder if he's ever heard of a work visa?

[Steve]

President Bush is proposing a set of "principles" that would grant legal status to willing workers from Mexico who have jobs waiting for them. (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3887721/) Gee, and here I thought the purpose of a work visa was to allow willing workers with waiting jobs to legally enter the country.

I see a sort of "grade inflation" coming our way: illegal immigrants will now be legal if they only have job. Legal immigrants currently here on work visas will be upgraded to resident alien status with permant residency. What's next? Abolishment of citizenship tests?

Don't get me wrong - something needs to be done about illegal immigration that acknowledges the fact that we can't keep them out unless we mine the borders (and replenish the mines daily), but this doesn't sound like much of a solution to me.

[Misu]

This administration is all kinds of messed up. I read this crap this morning, and nearly had a heartattack: labor dept. offers tips on screwing over employees (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040106/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/overtime_pay_6)

This part in the article killed me:

Making a "payroll adjustment" that results "in virtually no, or only a minimal increase in labor costs," the department said. Workers' annual pay would be converted to an hourly rate and cut, with overtime added in to equal the former salary.

Essentially, employees would be working more hours for the same pay.

The department does not view the "payroll adjustment" option as a pay cut. Rather, it allows the employer to "maintain the pay at the current level" with the new overtime requirements, said the Labor Department's Wage and Hour Division administrator, Tammy McCutchen, an architect of the plan.

Exactly WHAT kind of overtime deal is this that the labor department cooked up? It certainly isn't overtime pay - more like overtime hours for employers while employees have to work more hours for the same pay.

Man oh man, I cannot wait to vote Bush out of office.

[Robert Harris]

work more hours for the same pay.

Man oh man, I cannot wait to vote Bush out of office.

I'm with you -- and he can take Tammy with hiim.

[Stiofán]

President Bush is proposing a set of "principles" that would grant legal status to willing workers from Mexico who have jobs waiting for them. (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3887721/) Gee, and here I thought the purpose of a work visa was to allow willing workers with waiting jobs to legally enter the country.

I see a sort of "grade inflation" coming our way: illegal immigrants will now be legal if they only have job. Legal immigrants currently here on work visas will be upgraded to resident alien status with permant residency. What's next? Abolishment of citizenship tests?

Don't get me wrong - something needs to be done about illegal immigration that acknowledges the fact that we can't keep them out unless we mine the borders (and replenish the mines daily), but this doesn't sound like much of a solution to me.

OK, I too read this and what I see is the total capitulation to the pro illegal immigration crowd for political purposes <i>and to the big business interests</i> who support Bush. Let's analyse what <strike>dickhead Rove</strike> Bush is putting forth.

"grant legal status to willing workers from Mexico who have jobs waiting for them"

Now, how many corporate employers will be willing to have jobs waiting for poor, desperate Mexicans when it means thay no longer have to pay Americans $10-15 per hour when they can pay the illegals.....errrr, I mean newly legal immigrants $6-8 an hour for the same work. Don't you think there will be millions of jobs all across the country, that are suddenly waiting for these people to fill? You bet. This is nothing more than shifting the American payroll form Americans to Mexicans, with the resultantpay now being directed into Mexico's economy (after Uncle Sam gets his share of course, something which doesn't always happen now with illegals).

Who will be the loser. American citizens is who. Those who are working their way through school, those working multiple jobs to make ends meet, those having spouses work part time to make a little extra to afford some luxuries, or put their kids through college. Billions will now be directed from their pockets into those of Mexican families back home.

The southwest is pretty much already lost. The battle it seems, will be taken to the rest of the country now, which is where the southwest was about 30 years ago. Unfortunately things are speeding up expedentially, so you guys have about 10 years of prosperity left before your economy starts to get the life sucked out of it like down here.


:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

[limeygit]

OK people, I say you have about three or four years to :
(a) Become a member of upper-management in some corporation.
(b) Start your own company.
(c) Become a Doctor/Lawyer (who specializes in upper management and self-employed company owners, just to be on the safe-side).

Otherwise you can look forward to earning less per hour than you did 5 years ago, and you will probably have to learn Spanish as well.
Alternatively, you can move to India to provide tech support to those members of upper management who can not remember their password from one day to the next.

[cdw]

Damn. I'm not having a good time here. I don't see any choices on who to vote for. IMO they all suck. *sigh* Always have. So for those of you that think the people don't care....they do...they've just been here long enough to know that there isn't shit you can do about it.
I hear you want a revolution...well, ya know...we all wanna change the world.
That's it... I'm outta politics. AGAIN.

[Coot]

Okay, I gave this a day to cool off, and to listen to what he was going to say today, and the man has completely abrogated the duties of his office in coming up with this. It's a turd. I don't care how carefully and lovingly he polishes it, this turd will never be a diamond.

It's completely a case of vote pandering, else why would it be Karl Rove driving this? It's also a case of total capitulation to Vicente Fox, Bush's long time buddy...a long time buddy that even sided with France against us on Iraq. Fox must have some awfully damning pictures of 'Jorge Arbusto' in a terribly compromising position for this to be happening. I'm thinking something unseemly with barnyard animals.

We got screwed by Reagan when he signed the Simpson-Mazzoli Act 18 years ago that granted amnesty to 4 million felons illegally in the country. A provision of the Simpson-Mazzoli Act was to punish businesses that hired illegals and to lock down the border. It never happened. Now, 18 years later, Bush is telling us to bend over again because Reagan didn't quite bury that bone deep enough up our asses.

All Simpson-Mazzoli accomplished was to give Mexicans a green light to crash the border; now 18 years later we have 10-14 million of them in the country illegally and committing Class I felonies by falsifying documents.

Bush has proposed a number of *nod-nod wink-wink* safeguards to prevent abuses and to shutdown the illegal influx. Hmmm....where to start? Let's start with the job registration thing that insures Americans have first shot at the jobs. It is unenforceable without a huge bureaucracy just to oversee this part of it...not gonna happen. The Immigration people can't even deal with the people legally in the country and working. Aside from that, once they have legal status, all that cheap labor goes away because these people will now have the protection of the law with respects to wages etc. That means more illegals coming in and undercutting those wages and we now have unemployed semi-legal squatters who are supposed to go back to their country of origin...who aren't going to leave.

The cost of illegals to the states, and mine being one of the most impacted, isn't going to go down, it's going to go up as they'll be lining up for even more state services. The cost to California, above and beyond what they contribute, is conservatively estimated at $5 Billion...or 1/3 of our deficit. Cities like Compton, with a large population of unskilled and undereducated Americans, and with an unemployment rate in excess of 15% aren't going to be helped by this.

The National Security argument is even more ludicrous. How does knowing who all the illegal Mexicans in the country are help that? Please tell me they don't think the Al Qaeda dirty bastards are going to sign up for this Amnesty on the Installment Plan right along with the Mexicans.

This is a case of an elected official, sworn to uphold the laws of the land, pissing on those very laws for his own gain and to help out a politically dead 'buddy' in a foreign country who can't find traction and is for all intents and purposes on his way out.

It is treachery, and using the guise of National Security to try and pawn it off on an American public that is mostly asleep at the wheel is even more repugnant.

[FrankF]

On the way home tonight I found a few jobs for illegal aliens. A new fast food place in Simi Valley had a sign that said "Necesitamos Ayuda". I guess these jobs will probably be filled under the Bush plan. I can have my meal prepared by people who don't fucking speak or understand a word of English. All I have to do is order "number 5" or "numero cinco por favor" and I am sure they will get my order right. Hey, at least the people taking my order will be "legal" illegal aliens. :boo:

[ShinyTop]

So instead of the gods of capitalism making the companies pay wages that Americans want we will leave them unemployed and let the cheap ass companies ship jobs overseas and bring in Mexicans. I think we need somebody to start a war with Mexico.

[limeygit]

Lifted from the BBC site....

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/39712000/gif/_39712695_us_immigrants_map416.gif

[joseftu]

We must be living in Bizarro world. Is this for real? Coot's calling Bush a treacherous, pissing, turd (I'm paraphrasing), and even more surprising...<b>I'm</b> proud of Bush!

I think this is a fantastic proposal. It could go farther, but it's a very good start, and practical enough to pass.

It burns me up to admit, but I have to give Bush credit. The bastard! This gives him a lock on the re-election, too, I think.

(But still not my vote!)

[ethics]

Totally agree, Coot, you've hit it on the head. Bush sold out, pandered, and is now looking worse in 2004 as far as my vote is concerned.

Amnesty is the word I am looking for and we all know what happens when you give amnesty to criminals (illegals) right? Yep, I said criminals:
One that has committed or been legally convicted of a crime. Which in my book is an illegal alien.

I will also add something. My wife's LEGAL immigration, over 8 thousand dollars in travel fees, hotel, medical tests, and embassy visits, will not be something others will be looking to do in the future. Why? What the hell is the incentive? Come here, live out some time, become a worker and some knucklehead will give you amnesty. You save thousands of dollars not to mention months of separation times of your loved ones.

[Coot]

We must be living in Bizarro world. Is this for real? Coot's calling Bush a treacherous, pissing, turd (I'm paraphrasing), and even more surprising...I'm proud of Bush!

I think this is a fantastic proposal. It could go farther, but it's a very good start, and practical enough to pass.

It burns me up to admit, but I have to give Bush credit. The bastard! This gives him a lock on the re-election, too, I think.

(But still not my vote!)Lol Joe,
Actually I called this proposal a turd. :)

I'm not sure how anything about this can be construed as a positive. Illegals undercut the wages for our own poor an unskilled people. Jobs they used to do, like janitorial work, restaurant work, gardening, entry level construction etc., are now being done by illegals for dirt cheap. Our own poor won't compete for those wages and businesses won't hire them because they can get away with paying illegals less than minimum wage. Businesses, currently breaking the law by hiring them, are driving one half of the epidemic border crashing. That isn't conservatism, it's corporatism. You honestly don't think that jailing business owners and CEO's for hiring illegals is a more rational response?

We used to have a Brasero work program that allowed Mexicans into the country to do migrant farm work. Once the work was done, they were paid and returned to Mexico. It helped Mexico and Mexicans and we benefitted also. That's what we should be doing with that aspect of it now. We are then not obligated for the health care and education of the worker's families and they remain Mexican citizens. We are then not in the position of legalizing felons every generation and allowing Mexico to use the United States as a safety valve with the express purpose of exporting its poverty.

This does nothing more than further enable Mexico not to clean up its act. Until Mexico is forced to deal with its corruption and disasterous economic policy, it won't change. The threat of revolution from untold numbers of people unable to make a living might be the only thing that will turn that country around.

I fully intend to be in Sacramento next month when Vicente Fox comes to meet with Arnold. I also fully intend to stand right outside where he speaks with a bigass sign that says "GO HOME AND TAKE YOUR POVERTY WITH YOU."

Many of us here have known this Bush assault on American citizens was coming for a couple of months. I've been quite vocal about not supporting or voting for Bush if he goes through with this since he first floated the idea. I wasn't crazy about the Patriot Act or Son of Patriot Act, but this little jewel borders on treason.

If it isn't stopped here, we will be in the position of taking on more and more of Mexico's unskilled and illiterate every generation. Last time it was 4 million, this time it is going to be closer to 10 million, in 2022 it will be what, 22 million? Enough already.

[limeygit]

Good luck with the protest, Coot. Here is hoping they don't set up a 'free speech zone' for you...

[Misu]

I swear to god - wtf has happened? Is anyone who has two inches worth of brain matter in their heads in actual agreement with this insane proposal?

Give illegal immigrants legal status as long as they have jobs waiting for them?

UHHH, excuse me, but I just graduated college with a Bachelor's of Science degree, and I have tons of experience in the business setting, and I am quite computer savvy. I am an American citizen (born, not naturalized), and I speak perfect English AND SPANISH, since I am also Hispanic. And I cannot seem to get a job. Not even a freaking receptionist job that pays 8 bucks an hour.

And yet someone from outside the country has a job waiting for them?

Can someone remind me again why I am even bothering to stay in this country? If this crap keeps up, I'm moving to Spain.

[joseftu]

Illegals undercut the wages for our own poor an unskilled people. Jobs they used to do, like janitorial work, restaurant work, gardening, entry level construction etc., are now being done by illegals for dirt cheap. Our own poor won't compete for those wages and businesses won't hire them because they can get away with paying illegals less than minimum wage. But that's the whole point, isn't it? Under this proposal, businesses won't be able to get away with paying them less than minimum wage, so they won't be undercutting anyone--they won't be illegal!
My wife's LEGAL immigration, over 8 thousand dollars in travel fees, hotel, medical tests, and embassy visits, will not be something others will be looking to do in the future.But your wife should <b>not</b> have had to go through that. No one should. It will be a good thing if no one has to do that in the future. If it was wrong for your wife, it's wrong for any immigrant.

If more people want to come to this country, work, support their families, that's a good thing. It strengthens us and their home countries, too. If even more people want to come to this country, work, support their families, and ultimately apply for and receive citizenship and stay here, that's even better.

My maternal grandparents and paternal great-grandparents were immigrants. The original legality of their immigration was questionable, at best, but they ultimately ended up as citizens. They worked menial jobs (my maternal grandfather in factories and sweatshops, and my paternal great-grandfather as a farmworker) which no one else wanted to take. They saved their money and learned the language until they could manage to open small stores in neighborhoods where no one else wanted to open a store. They worked long hours, struggled, raised their families, and sent their kids to college--and medical school. Their sons served in the military.

I'm here today because of immigration. I exist at all anywhere because of immigration, since all of my relatives who did not immigrate were killed by the Nazis.

This country should welcome immigrants. That's what we're all about. I see no reason to deny people the right to do what my ancestors did, just because their names are Martinez or Montoya, instead of Moses or McGillicuddy.

Some of you must be familiar with this poem (hint--it's inscribed on a popular landmark!)
<DT>Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame, <DT>With conquering limbs astride from land to land; <DT>Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand <DT>A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame <DT>Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name <DT>Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand <DT>Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command <DT>The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame. <DT>"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she <DT>With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor, <DT>Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, <DT>The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. <DT>Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me, <DT>I lift my lamp beside the golden door!" </DT><DT> </DT>

[ethics]

But your wife should not have had to go through that. No one should. It will be a good thing if no one has to do that in the future. If it was wrong for your wife, it's wrong for any immigrant.

<DT></DT>So why are we not fixing the legal aspect of it and just going the cop-out route?

[cdw]

UHHH, excuse me, but I just graduated college with a Bachelor's of Science degree, and I have tons of experience in the business setting, and I am quite computer savvy. I am an American citizen (born, not naturalized), and I speak perfect English AND SPANISH, since I am also Hispanic. And I cannot seem to get a job. Not even a freaking receptionist job that pays 8 bucks an hour.



You can't get a job? :huh:


Well, I've been watching a lot of talk shows about this whole thing and from what I can gather, this hasn't been put into any form resembling a bill, so it's just a lot of talk for the election year. So far.
There also is mucho talk about how something like this would never get past the house, although I guess that would depend on what "pork" was offered to get it through should it get to that point.
I've written everyone...pres, reps, ridge about it and told them I'm against it.
So, I've done what I can, that I know of, and I'm going to sit back and see what happens...if he actually puts it forth or it's just a bunch of gibberish.
I'm against it. Totally. I have no problem with immigrants, but I want them in the FRONT door. I see no point in rewarding those that have broken the law. And I don't see how this would fix any problems now or for the future so what is the point of doing it?

[ethics]

Cyd, I don't see this as a positive from any angle. Seems like a "feel good, we are doing something" bs Bush is putting forth.

[joseftu]

So why are we not fixing the legal aspect of it and just going the cop-out route?We are fixing the legal aspect of it. That's exactly the point. You can call it a cop-out, or you can call it humane and pragmatic. By either name, it's fixing something that was clearly not working.

[cdw]

Cyd, I don't see this as a positive from any angle. Seems like a "feel good, we are doing something" bs Bush is putting forth.

Well, I'm not feeling good about it. I can't wait til the Dem's finally figure out who they are putting up against him so I know who I'm going to vote for. So far I'm with Bush, but he keeps putting shit like this out there and I'm going to really have to think about it.
Or vote for those that can keep him a little under control in the house and congress.
decisions, decisions rofl

[ethics]

We are fixing the legal aspect of it. That's exactly the point. You can call it a cop-out, or you can call it humane and pragmatic. By either name, it's fixing something that was clearly not working.
How is the legal aspect of this being fixed? Did the ludicrous price of VISA fees for potential citizens being cut? Are the requirements for financial support going to be checked sooner than 6-12 months? Do people still have to fly out to a different country other than their own to get an interview? Paperwork from the US Embassy going to reach people PRIOR to their appointment (my wife received hers AFTER she left and thank God for a kind Polish border guard that listened to my wife's pleads that I was waiting on the other end)?

[ethics]

You would think that a Republican Congress can keep him in check but as someone mentioned, who knows what side of their bread is buttered.

[joseftu]

I think it's being fixed like this...your wife now would show a letter (or a form, or something) saying that there's a job waiting for her. Then she's in, for three years. At the end of that time she can renew. At the end of that time, or during that time, she can also apply for a green card, which will be easier to get. Once she has the green card, citizenship will also be easier. Citizenship won't be automatic, but it will absolutely be possible--and green cards will be given more easily and frequently. And people will be able to be here, working, protected by the law, during the whole process of citizenship approval. They won't have to worry about visiting their home country and being denied re-entry, they won't have to worry about being deported, or exploited by unscrupulous employers or clerks.

I'm surprised and impressed that Bush had the courage to propose this, and I'm glad that it came from him, because I don't think a democrat could possibly have pushed it through congress. But I think he'll be able to. And then next year, when we have a democratic president (fingers crossed), we'll be able to expand the program even more.

Like I said, I hate to do it, but I have to give the turd (not Coot's term for him--I misread. ;)) credit.

It's a good idea, good for immigrants, good for the US, and good for the immigrants' home countries. It makes the conservatives mad, too!

[Coot]

We are fixing the legal aspect of it. That's exactly the point. You can call it a cop-out, or you can call it humane and pragmatic. By either name, it's fixing something that was clearly not working.
It fixes nothing Joe. Once the current group of illegals get some form of status and the wages are raised, businesses currently employing them will want the cheaper labor and hire the new illegals streaming across the border in even greater numbers for less than legal wages.

Under the Simpson-Mazzoli Act that Reagan signed, businesses that hire illegals are subject to a $10,000 fine per offense. It's not enforced...it was never enforced. When Reagan signed that legislation, it was like flipping on a green light at the border. Illegal immigration spiked. This is nothing but more of the same.

This is bad public policy and it will continue to cost taxpayers billions of dollars each year (actually those costs will just escalate).

[joseftu]

But Coot--won't those "new illegals" just be legal, too? This proposal effectively ends illegal immigration. Because anyone who wants to come and work will be able to. Why would anyone come illegally anymore?

[Coot]

But Coot--won't those "new illegals" just be legal, too? This proposal effectively ends illegal immigration. Because anyone who wants to come and work will be able to. Why would anyone come illegally anymore?To enter legally, after the law takes affect, you must have a job waiting for you...paperwork in hand and processed. If you haven't got that, your only recourse into the land of milk and honey is to crash the border. Once they're here without status, there will be no shortage of businesses willing to hire them for dirt wages. The cycle repeats.

The only real solution as I see it is to enforce the proscription on business, as set down in Simpson-Mazzoli. Start going after the companies doing the hiring and dry up the jobs. Most will return to Mexico. Once the dust clears, we will know what we need and we can then make sensible immigration decisions based on that. 180 day brasero work permits for farm workers, some amount of garment workers etc. That will free up many service worker type jobs for our own American unskilled that used to do these jobs but got undercut by the illegals. This is all of course predicated on locking down the border.

[ShinyTop]

Joseftu. in the capitalist world you try to hire help at the cheapest wage possible. If you cannot hire at the minimum you go up until you can hire help. If your price of goods goes up that is also part of capitalism. What Bush is doing is making sure that business can hire at the minimum wage instead of letting market forces up the wages. This means that the Americans who should be getting those upped wages are not. The market forces would eventually determine what jobs are not needed or can be replaced by automation.

Government's policy, and it is not just Bush, is to allow our low paying jobs to be taken by Mexicans. If they were just unwanted jobs it would not be a bad policy. But their low wages are artificially low since they were never given the opportunity to seek the right wage for the job.

What you have, plain and simple, is big business crying they are not making enough money because America's standard of living is too high. So the administration allows work to go overseas, overseas workers to come here and the low price jobs to go to Mexicans. What is incredibly ironic is that in their PR work the same businesses brag about being responsible for the standard of living we enjoy while they do their best to export it.

Your inner liberal self is all warm and cuddly because you perceive this as a victory for immigration and the country when it is clearly not. These same immigrants who are out and out criminals by the definition of the word will also be down and out with the rest of the country except for the boards of the corporations sending all our jobs elsewhere if these policies continue for any length of time.

[joseftu]

My inner liberal self feels good enough that I'm willing to give this a chance. You make some interesting arguments, Coot and Shiny, and I'm certainly aware that Bush's first priority is always going to be to help corporations. But I think this could be a foot in the door, a beginning step, a move in the right direction. We need to make the road to permanent residency and citizenship <b>much</b> easier and quicker. The vast majority of immigrants, legal or not, are desirable, beneficial additions to our country.

[Coot]

Joe, I see this as nothing more than the perpetuation and enhancement of a failed policy, and am therefore vehemently opposed to it. From your tone, it is clear that you advocate open borders and that we take all comers. That, IMVHO, is a recipe for disaster. We should be scrutinizing the people we allow in to insure that we are only allowing people in who can make a direct and positive contribution.

Our current defacto immigration policy is in direct violation of many of our laws and costs the American taxpayer far more real dollars than any benefit received. The situation we currently have, has the states with the highest numbers of unskilled immigrants subsidizing lower prices for the rest of the country on the backs of those States' Income Tax payers.

[ethics]

I think it's being fixed like this...your wife now would show a letter (or a form, or something) saying that there's a job waiting for her. Then she's in, for three years. At the end of that time she can renew. At the end of that time, or during that time, she can also apply for a green card, which will be easier to get.
I think we are speaking of two different things and I believe that's my fault.

I am not talking about working VISA's solely, Joe, I am focused on LEGAL immigration as a whole.

[jfcjrus]

Well, I'm not feeling good about it. I can't wait til the Dem's finally figure out who they are putting up against him so I know who I'm going to vote for. So far I'm with Bush, but he keeps putting shit like this out there and I'm going to really have to think about it.
Or vote for those that can keep him a little under control in the house and congress.
decisions, decisions rofl
I agree.
MILLIONS of people in this country, ILLEGALLY!
Breaking the LAW!
And this proposal just excuses that fact.

Sure, I have empathy for their plight, but suggest that the solution is for Mr. Fox to straighten out the massive corruption in his own country, instead of us making it easier for him to allow it to continue.

Perhaps the easiest thing for us to do would be to allow Mexico to become the 51st State.
Hell, with this proposal, they're damn near that already!

Regards,

[limeygit]

Joseftu. in the capitalist world you try to hire help at the cheapest wage possible. If you cannot hire at the minimum you go up until you can hire help. If your price of goods goes up that is also part of capitalism. What Bush is doing is making sure that business can hire at the minimum wage instead of letting market forces up the wages. This means that the Americans who should be getting those upped wages are not. The market forces would eventually determine what jobs are not needed or can be replaced by automation.

Government's policy, and it is not just Bush, is to allow our low paying jobs to be taken by Mexicans. If they were just unwanted jobs it would not be a bad policy. But their low wages are artificially low since they were never given the opportunity to seek the right wage for the job.

What you have, plain and simple, is big business crying they are not making enough money because America's standard of living is too high. So the administration allows work to go overseas, overseas workers to come here and the low price jobs to go to Mexicans. What is incredibly ironic is that in their PR work the same businesses brag about being responsible for the standard of living we enjoy while they do their best to export it.

Your inner liberal self is all warm and cuddly because you perceive this as a victory for immigration and the country when it is clearly not. These same immigrants who are out and out criminals by the definition of the word will also be down and out with the rest of the country except for the boards of the corporations sending all our jobs elsewhere if these policies continue for any length of time.

I agree with Shiny 100%, apart from that inner liberal self crap-trap at the end.
Joe, forgive me if I am wrong, but you work in a university. As such this whole 'direction' won't effect your sphere of work at all. However it is my total belief that this is 'direction', and it is being put forward by those in positions of power in large corporations.
You see, in most places in this country, nobody earns minimum wage. I certainly don't know of anybody. Even a high school kid can make $8 an hour with no problem. Even fast food type jobs pay at least $6.50-$7 for a kid with no experience or skills of any sort.
This is a result of economic conditions. It is a by-product of capitalism, which corporations should be all for. However, in the current climate, big companies are about one thing, looking good on paper, so they can sell more stocks, so they can get bigger, so they can buy their competitor, so they can look better on paper, so they can sell more stocks, so they can get nice bonuses.
The simple fact is, these companies do not care about 20 years from now. They care about this year's figures. As such, they don't care if it is a long terms issue to farm jobs and the associated wages, out of the country to India or the Philippines, as long as it makes them look better on paper, right now.
They want any way to squeeze things to make their company look more competitive. One of these ways would be to lower wages. They quite frankly see that they have to pay someone $8 to do an almost unskilled job, plus the associated costs of benefits etc, and they weep. The downturn in the economy allowed them to lower wages when hiring in the middle ground, front line supervisors, IT and the like. However, the economy, in most places, staid strong enough, that the bottom range jobs still existed, and you could get away with cutting staff, but when hiring you had to pay about the same as when the economy was in full upswing.
What is being proposed is an answer to this massive problem of the average guy being able to make enough to have a house and a car, and only be slightly in debt. This creates a new under-under class who will take $5.50 an hour with no benefits, with a huge smile on their face.
Once that is in place, then when Joe Average is fired, then he will suddenly find that people will happily pay him a little more than the Mexican, he is after all American. However, they really can't afford to pay what they did, would $6.50 be OK?
As I said in my first post in this thread, in a much jokier manner than this, this is a direct attack, by corporate America on unskilled and semi-skilled workers. Listen up, they are fed up of paying you more than they want to. They agreed on a Minimum wage, why the hell are the having to pay 3 or 4 dollars over it. Now here is their answer. I honestly believe, no matter what your political bent, that you need to vote Bush out. Replace him with a crazed liberal if need be, he can always be stopped by congress. Nobody seems willing, or able, to stop Bush when he gets up a head of steam.

I would like to point out I am not in the least right-wing, and that I have posted several times about how inadequate the immigration system in the US is. I think that fixing it should be a huge political issue, and a major factor of the next election. I also believe that there needs to be something in places to control the illegal problem, so that those who are willing to work hard, and obey the laws, and be productive, can get legality. Although I bristle a little at the idea it should be easier than those of us who jumped through every hoop we were asked, in triplicate.
However I 100% believe, this is not about fixing an immigration problem. It is about fixing a problem with corporate America running out of ways to squeeze their books to make it look like they are more profitable each and every year.

[ethics]

Hell of a post, Limey, and I stand by my initial statement; Limey is a smart man. ;)

[joseftu]

Thanks Limey, Coot and Shiny (and my inner liberal takes no offense--I can handle worse insults than that! :)) for the extensive rebuttals.

I think I need to give this proposal some more thought. I knew I should have been more suspicious of it--considering the source.

I do think that the vast majority of the "illegals" are actually more than willing to work hard, obey the rules and be productive--but as the current system exists, they don't have that chance. Bush's proposal may not be the best way to give them that chance. But I think bold proposals and drastic changes are the direction we need to take.

Maybe ideas more similar to the "Dream Act" (currently stalled in Congress) are more suited to the needs of the immigrants, rather than the corporations.

[Stiofán]

You're all looking at this wrong.

Bush has managed to fix our corporate outsoursing problem.

We no longer need to send our jobs to a cheaper labor force. Now we can simply import the cheaper labor force right into the heart of our country. Beautiful!

This is so wrong on so many levels I don't even know where to start. Many in this thread have touched on some great points already. Let me just add a few more.

We have an estimated 5-6 million of the illegals here in California. We also have a population in excess of 37 million here. That's the population of the average European country, and exceeds our friends in Canada and Australia, I believe. All in a much smaller land mass.

Now in many parts of the U.S., the American dream of getting married and buying your own home for about $60,000 - $80,000 and then moving up as you age and better your employment is still intact (for now).

Here, we can no longer do that. For the first time, the percentage of families earning enough to buy a home has dropped under 30% in our state. The average price in most urban and suburban areas for a new tract home is now in the $450,000 to $600,000 range. You won't find many run down "fixer-uppers" for less than $250,000 - $300,000. I just insured a mobile home for $330,000 and have another in escrow for over $500,000. This is a tin can folks, going for over half a million dollars. The same coach, straight off the factory assembly line, can be had for $95,000. But they can't get the space for it here. They are all taken, so you have to buy an existing one at outragious prices. In the bay area, people routinely drive 2-3 hours one way to work, because they are priced out of the local housing market. For that 3 hour drive, they are lucky enough to buy a low $400,000 tract house.

We can't absorb any more people here at current wages. How can a young couple, both working, buy a home here. How can they live here when the average price of a one bedroom apartment now exceeds $1,500 in most areas except the most downtrodden.

I insure rental homes where the landlords rent to 15-20 illegals at $250-300 a pop. Why rent to a young family for $1,200 when you can get $3,500, and no one will complain if it's run down.

The illegals will work in the fields for $2-3 an hour. Some get a little more, but most all get paid less than minimum wage, no taxes are paid and no benefits are given. The construction industry is "allowed" a certain number of laborers on each job site. They aren't unionized, they don't get minimum wages, and the government and unions look the other way. The food service industry has most all of it's back room staffs as illegals. They get paid squat to cook and clean for us legals, and the owners reap the profits.

The only persons benifiting from acts like this are the business interests who want to lower their labor costs, and Mexico who can export their unemployed to us because they are unwilling to provide jobs south of the border. If the spigot was shut off, the people down there would revolt. But it won't be, thanks to asinine proposals like this one.

Now imagine if we only had a population of 31 million. Think what that would do for our housing market. We'd no longer need to rape our land at the current pace to find a place to live. Las Vegas, a nothing sand pit in Southern Nevada, and one of the closest metro areas to California, wouldn't have more than doubled it's population in the last ten years. Imagine the city you're in right now having it's population double in ten years. Pretty far fetched, huh. Vegas is absorbing California's overflow. They sit near the mighty Colorado river next to huge Lake Mead, and they are nearly out of water.

This entire mess makes me want to puke.

The solution is very simple. We wouldn't have to militarize our borders. We wouldn't have to round up millions of illegals. We wouldn't have to profile, and harass millions of legal hispanic citizens and residents. We wouldn't have to do any of that.

All this country would have to do is enforce our labor laws and first fine employers hiring illegals, then second give them jail time if they repeat. Simple. No work for illegals, no illegals crossing the border. Then our citizens and legal resident aliens could once again enjoy the American Dream.

Yes, let's all remember 1986. Those that won't learn from history are destined to repeat it.

[Domh]

Mmmm - fresh yummy tax revenue, and nothing else good.

:rolleyes:

[Sierra Mike]

I wonder if Joe Leiberman or Wesley Clark have a viable alternative? This is something I'd like to hear from them about. Might help me make up my mind on voting for them, as I will not vote for any of the other Dems, and can no longer vote for the incumbent.

SM

[Robert Harris]

...can no longer vote for the incumbent.


BRAVO!
:happy: :happy: :happy: :happy: :happy:

And now that you've wised up about that turd, you should consider tje Rev. Al. rofl

[Stiofán]

And now that you've wised up about that turd, you should consider tje Rev. Al. rofl

No, we're all moving to Canada, and we're bringing our guns.

[Stiofán]

It seems Mexico has weighed in, now we'll have foreign lobbyists bribing our politicians. (http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=politicsNews&storyID=4095693)

[Coot]

In last month's Fortune Magazine, there was an article discussing the enormous cost of illegal aliens. It was rather refreshing to see it taken up with the blinders off in a business magazine. Read all about it in Introducing The New Third Rail: Immigration. (http://www.fortune.com/fortune/valuedriven/0,15704,565325,00.html)

The author, while pretty much on the mark, insofar as he covers most of what's been said in various posts on this forum, still misses a few of the finer points.


In parts of the country with lots of illegal immigrants—the 24 U.S. counties that border Mexico, plus much of the rest of California—the situation is becoming debilitating. Senator Dianne Feinstein of California estimates medical costs for illegal immigrants are running about $1 billion a year in her state; with superb political instincts, she's blaming no one and simply backing a bill to reimburse state and local hospitals with federal money. I spoke recently with an administrator of a Texas hospital in a border county, and he says current rules imperil his hospital and drive him nuts. And by the way, he's not allowed to call immigrants illegal. They're undocumented.
The full economic effects are much wider. Employers who hire illegals pay them cash and thus evade employment taxes. They may also not report revenue from the work the illegals do and thus evade income taxes. Companies that compete with these employers must cut their own costs, mostly by paying their own workers (regardless of status) lower cash wages under the table, and the tax evasion spreads further.

A downward spiral begins. Government revenues decline while demand for government services goes up. The burden on taxpayers grows heavier. They respond by finding their own ways to avoid taxes or simply by leaving, making the problem even worse.

I said this was big trouble for a couple of reasons. Economics was the first. The second is deeper. The situation we've created mocks American laws and ideals. It tells working, taxpaying citizens and other legal residents with Social Security numbers that they're chumps. Go to the emergency room, and if you can't pay your bill, the hospital can track you down and garnish your wages. But the illegal immigrant can't be tracked and doesn't pay the bill. You pay it, through your taxes. You dope.
So, in the case of California, taxpaying citizens are leaving, in fact last year was the first year that while net migration into the state increased, emigration out of the state by American citizens was actually higher than the number of American citizens coming into the state. Now we have a state, encumbered by a lagging economy, a socialist madhouse legislature with a serious spending addiction, a deficit being fueled by more unskilled people demanding more state services and we're now facing an exodus of real tax payers.

The asshats in the legislature don't want to cut, they want to spend more. They truly believe they can tax their way out of this mess.

Add to that, a boneheaded ploy by Jorge "Arbusto" Bush to throw open the gates and further undercut wages (and thereby state revenues) all in the name of "compassion" <small>wink</small>. He seems awfully damned ready to show compassion to citizens of another country, where is that same compassion for wage earning citizens?

As I said earlier, this is not compassion nor is it 'compassionate conservatism', it is simply Corporatism. Bush thinks that the only way for American business can compete with Asia is to depress wages for workers and allow the employers to add that to their bottom line.

The 8-14 million Mexican illegals in this country are not the educated, they're not the skilled workers, they are the poorest of the poor. The campasinos and paisanos from the Pueblo areas of Mexico. This is a Mexican problem that we are having shoved down our throats. Mexico, a country rich enough in resources is so corrupt that it cannot even work out the simplest rules of an economy. So corrupt that the dollars the illegals here send back is only second to oil in their GNP.

[Sierra Mike]

And now that you've wised up about that turd, you should consider tje Rev. Al. rofl
I would vote for Bush before I voted for that cracker Sharpton.

SM

[Robert Harris]

That's all right Steve. We have several months left to open your eyes

[Stiofán]

Good post, Coot. Our only hope may be Tancredo and Gallegly at this point.

[Sierra Mike]

That's all right Steve. We have several months left to open your eyes
I'll gouge them out with a spoon before I see Sharpton as president. I'd rather have David Duke--at least he's for my race, if we have to play things that way. I've already given up enough of my freedoms to make blacks feel better about themselves, but I refuse to be put in the back of the bus just because it happened to them once.

SM

[Coot]

I've already given up enough of my freedoms to make blacks feel better about themselves, but I refuse to be put in the back of the bus just because it happened to them once.

SM
Bunch of ingrates. Can't you see that President Bush is doing his best to see to it that we all can afford bus fare and have a seat on the bus?

[limeygit]

Bunch of ingrates. Can't you see that President Bush is doing his best to see to it that we all can afford bus fare and have a seat on the bus?

We could all be applying to drive it for $5.50 an hour pretty soon...

[Coot]

We could all be applying to drive it for $5.50 an hour pretty soon...
Well, $5.50 an hour and you get to wear those spiffy uniforms. See, I told you they were a bunch of ingrates.

[pupowski]

...Man oh man, I cannot wait to vote Bush out of office.Ditto! He is the worst in US history, but getting rid of him is just the beginning .