View Full Version : There is no acceptable excuse.
Steve
06-14-2003, 11:45 PM
My heart withers a little more, and my soul crys in despair. (http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/06/14/child.car.death.ap/index.html) You ask, ethics, where is God, when a child dies? I still don't know.
But I do know there can be no acceptable excuse for a parent whose action, or inaction, caused the death of his or her child. So there was not "intention" involved in this death. There still must be culpability.
I don't know what punishment our courts or our society can mete out to a parent so negligent; I don't know if punishment is even called for. But I do know that something terribly wrong happened, here, something that is far worse than a "mistake" or an "accident".
In the final reckoning, perhaps those secure in their traditional Judeo-Christian faith are right: God will render judgment, and it will be just and final. As for me, I only know that something terribly wrong happened, and nothing temporal will right that wrong, and my soul still crys in despair.
I don't know what punishment our courts or our society can mete out to a parent so negligent; I don't know if punishment is even called for. But I do know that something terribly wrong happened, here, something that is far worse than a "mistake" or an "accident".
I don't know either Steve. I am hardpressed to see an upside for punishing this parent. I am equally disturbed at just letting it go.
Fiona
06-15-2003, 02:24 AM
forgot Hayden was in the car
IMHO-There is no excuse. This is what makes MEN look bad as parents. Yes women do it too. But people who forget they have children, shouldn't have them. Unfortunately, there is no good way to control this.
I actually ALMOST forgot my son once... I still can't get over the horrendous guilt that I could do such a thing... It ISN'T forgiveable.
Isn't this the same thing that the judge in the article Ethics posted with permission struggled with? He got out of his truck, leaving his son behind. The son died and the father killed himself. Neither do I know what should be done. I imagine this man will be in his own hell for the rest of his life. Is that enough?
I don't know. I really don't know.
Edit: what ever happened to that post? Did it get lost in the screw up of the forum? Maybe Ethics can put it back up?
Fiona
06-15-2003, 02:53 AM
Originally posted by cydweeks
I imagine this man will be in his own hell for the rest of his life. Is that enough?
I don't know. I really don't know. But that doesn't excuse us from judgement by our peers. If there isn't SOME earthly accountability, what's to stop REAL criminals from using this angle?
That's the whole gist of it though. He didn't do it on purpose.... it wasn't criminal. Irresponsible, definately. Personally, I can't imagine that happening to me no matter how hairbrained I am some times. I don't know. What purpose would it do to put him in jail? Then again, yes, he's accountable. That's why that story was so heartbreaking (the one someone had ethics post about the judge). The judge struggled with the same question and came to the conclusion that he had to assign some jail time. Then had to wrestle with his own conscience when the father killed himself. (I believe I have this right) I don't know....it's such a tough thing for everyone concerned. I really don't know...like I said, I don't believe I could ever forget I had a child that I was responsible for... hell, I worry about the dogs constantly and am very conscienous of the fact they depend on me to protect them. And, I can just imagine what it must be like to totally fuck up and have to live with that. What could be worse? Jail?
ShinyTop
06-15-2003, 03:07 AM
The rub is this is recent phenon. Before we worried about strapping kids in the back seat you did not forget about your kids. So now we everybody telling us to put them in the back seat or we are terrible parents. Wonder if the backseat push vs good seat in the front has cost more lives than saved.
I can't imagine this happening unless it wasn't part of someone's regular routine. (having the kid with them)
I don't know, that's all I can say. I'm sitting here shaking my head. No, there is no excuse... how can you forget that there is a little being depending on you? But what could possibly be worse than losing that little being?
ditch
06-15-2003, 04:27 AM
There is a law in OZ, and perhaps elsewhere as well, that would cause this bloke to be accused of manslaughter. Specifically the child died by "death caused by negligence". The law covering this is relatively new, like 5 years. The adult is responsible under law, and by simple moral reasoning IMO. If it was a geniuine case of forgetfulness then he will suffer with this for the rest of his life but down here would be charged and probably do time..... if found guilty.
To look at this objectively, I can understand this happening but there is no excuse. Surely that degree of carelessness cannot be excused at all.
ethics
06-15-2003, 10:46 AM
Originally posted by fiona_campbell
IMHO-There is no excuse. This is what makes MEN look bad as parents. Yes women do it too. But people who forget they have children, shouldn't have them.
Fiona, you've capped the word MEN, as if women do not kill their kids, and many intentionally. I do not think this is a gender problem at all. I especially when you, a woman, admits something like I actually ALMOST forgot my son once...
As to the article, if the court proved that he forgot, the best punishment is the worst one, memory and having to live with himself haunted by his mistake. It sounds as if he loved the kid.
RRedline
06-15-2003, 01:45 PM
That this man has to live the rest of his life knowing that his neglect killed his son should be punishment enough. I know it sounds strange and even unforgiveable to think that a man could <i>forget</i> his child, but these things happen. I'm not sure that a prison sentence would really accomplish anything. If it truly was neglect and not intentional, then was a crime even committed?
How many young children die each year from falling out of windows? It's a shame, but people make mistakes. More children are going to die like this no matter how many safeguards we put in place. I just hope that nobody else ever gets injured or killed due to my own negligence.
Biker
06-15-2003, 01:52 PM
Sorry... Even with a plate load of crap and stress, I've NEVER forgotten about my child in the back seat. NEVER! It boils down to what your priorities are. With me, job has always taken a back seat to family, not the other way around.
The news story says regarding the father "Then, running behind schedule and exhausted, Fish stopped for coffee, drove to work and forgot Hayden was in the car, authorities said."
Taking that at face value he simply forgot. He did not know or plan to have his son placed in such dangerous or fatal circumstances. That is a lot different than deliberately doing it. A whole lot different.
There are other serious issues here but regarding punishing the father the fact above is most relevant and key, don't you think?
ethics, maybe it is time to post a link to that previous posted Pulitzer Prize wining article the and the thread about the father who left his little boy unattended in a pickup in the mountains of Utah?
Biker
06-15-2003, 02:01 PM
<a href="http://www.globalaffairs.org/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5588" target="blank">A Father's Pain, a Judge's Duty, and a Justice Beyond Their Reach</a>.
Biker
06-15-2003, 02:07 PM
I should also state that these two circumstances are totally different. Paul Wayment KNEW his child was in the truck and left him there anyway. In this case, it's just as bad where the father "forgot" his child was in the vehicle. Both instances are inexcusable.
ditch
06-15-2003, 05:51 PM
Adults are responsible for the children that are left in their care. This should be the case under law as well, not just morally. To excuse an adult in cases such as this obsolves them of responsibility for their actions. This should never be the case. As tragic as it was, the death of the child cannot be put down to "Oh I forgot".
A year or so ago down here there was a case of a woman who left the car with the engine and air con. It was a hot day and her child was in the back, while she quickly stppped to buy something. In her absence the car was stolen, driven a few blocks and left, with the engine off. The child died because of the heat. The thief was caught and charged and held responsible for the death of the child. The woman was not charged with anything nor should she have been. Different circumstances I know, but it has similarites.
IamZed
06-15-2003, 06:38 PM
You know I lived with a woman and her kids and that one was very young. I will call her little X. Every day either her mother or I would drop her off or pick her up at daycare. One day I am at work and I get a call. It was from the hospital. It was about X. My heart fucking stopped. They said she had been pulled from a van in a parking lot downtown. Apparently one of the daycare workers wanted to get some personal things done so he took the kids along. It was a very hot day. He left them in the van for about an hour and a half before X saw a woman get out of a truck with a Pepsi logo and asked her for a Pepsi. The woman called the police. The kids were rushed to the hospital. They contacted me first and I called her mother. I left work and went down to the hospital feeling as afraid as anyone of us would be after getting off the phone with the hospital, saying “We have your child” but when I got there all was well. The daycare worker was royally fucked I suppose, I don’t know, we never went back there.
The thing that bothered me is I was the only one there. This guy had taken a vanload of kids to a job interview or something, and they all had been taken to the hospital. When I showed up I was the first and only parental type to respond. It took hours to get her out of there. I think her mother actually had to show up. That was getting late in the day. I was in a room of kids who had no parents looking for them and that was sad, as I had grown to know them all by name over the months.
He only other stories I have about kids being locked in cars come from my childhood, WHEN IT WAS COMMON FUCKING PRACTICE TO LOCK YOUR KIDS IN THE CAR FOR HOURS.
I just don’t know. Today if you treated a child as I was you would go to jail.
Fiona
06-15-2003, 08:08 PM
Originally posted by ethics
Fiona, you've capped the word MEN, as if women do not kill their kids, and many intentionally. I do not think this is a gender problem at all. I especially when you, a woman, admits something like I actually ALMOST forgot my son once...
As to the article, if the court proved that he forgot, the best punishment is the worst one, memory and having to live with himself haunted by his mistake. It sounds as if he loved the kid. You seem abit defensive. I capped the word MEN because MEN always get the bad rap. I stated immediately thereafter that women do it to. :) I even went so far as to confess that even I should not have been given a license to parent.
(no offense intended)
You don't plan to forget. You don't forget on purpose. You don't know in advance that you are going to forget. When you have forgotten you have no knowledge of that which you have forgotten.
All I know of this story is that which was linked and it says the father and the case were investigated. Those who investigated are satisfied that he forgot and inherent in that conclusion is that knowing all the available facts there was adequate basis for the investigating team team to decide he really forgot and that under the circumstances there was nothing criminal in his actions or behavior that caused him to forget.
Maybe there is more to this story. Maybe more will come out. I suspect that if the public gets as upset as many of our members have over not charging the guy and letting him go for forgetting they will reverse themselves and charge the guy.
Prosecuting someone just because there was a horrible consequence arising out of his action or inaction is not good enough.
You can't go after someone just because you don't like the outcome of something.
I say that with all respect to all of you who are mad about this and want the guy charged and find his actions inexcusable. I know that your own sense of responsibility and personal values for the care of and love for children motivate you. But this case is why we have laws, investigators (police), courts, the judicial or justice system and we don't leave it to the mob or street justice! (I am not inferring any of you would do anything illegal, join a mob, or take vigilante action.)
ditch
06-16-2003, 07:22 AM
Those who investigated are satisfied that he forgot and inherent in that conclusion is that knowing all the available facts there was adequate basis for the investigating team team to decide he really forgot and that under the circumstances there was nothing criminal in his actions or behavior that caused him to forget.
If you speed while driving and knock over and kill a pedestrian, there was no criminal intent but you can be charged with manslaughter.
Prosecuting someone just because there was a horrible consequence arising out of his action or inaction is not good enough.
No, you are right. But the guy in the Pulitzer prize winning story was prosecuted not just because there was a horrible consequence. If he had said "I forgot my son was in the car" would he have not been prosecuted?
You can't go after someone just because you
don't like the outcome of something.
Thats right, but the converse also applies. You cannot not go after them just because the guy is full of genuine remorse.
Being responsible for your actions was applied to the case of the hunter and should be here too. There was no ill intent in either case. The fact that one forgot and the other left the child cognizant of him being left is not the point. The adult is responsible for the well being of the child in both cases.
The law does not exist simply for individual cases, but for the betterment of society at large. This betterment is best served by having laws that intend to make people, in this case adults in charge of children's well being, to be responsible for their own actions.
For what it's worth, if I was this unfortunate father and was charged, I would be screaming that the law is an ass. But the law isn't there to protect me from my stupid mistakes. Its there to serve society as a whole. Society is better served if adults are legally, not just morally, responsible for those left in their care.
The man is responsible for the welfare of his offspring. "I forgot my kid was in the car" is not an acceptable excuse, whether true or not. Intention is irrelevant.
I have a job. I dont forget to come in every day and do it. If I do forget, Ill get fired and not be able to eat.
There is NO EXCUSE for 'spacing out' and leaving your child in danger. This man KILLED his child. Period. End of story. Mental masturbate it around however long it takes to obfuscate the essential facts.
It seems that jail or lethal injection arent the right response here, but the man should most definitely be sterilized, and forbidden from ever holding any position of responsibility ensuring the welfare of children.
Unreal.
Fiona
06-16-2003, 01:55 PM
WOW- My view is Dom's is a little TOO strong... Matrix, I understand and agree. It just seems there should be SOME penance(sp?) Of course he's devastated and will suffer forever over the loss of his child. But he caused and accident... There had to be SOME restitution. This brings up the restitution to self. Who does he owe? He owes himself a child, the rest of the family also... so it seems fitting at least some community service or some junk is in order.. I can't begin to imagine what... but SOMETHING
Originally posted by fiona_campbell
so it seems fitting at least some community service or some junk is in order.. I can't begin to imagine what... but SOMETHING
Hunh? There is only one thing this man owes to society, and that is the guarantee that he will never be allowed to 'space out' and kill another child. Whether he 'meant to do it' or not is pretty irrelevant. If I blow somebody away cause they smell like shit and I hate them, then I expect society to ensure Ill never be able to do it again. Same goes for this guy. Period.
He must be either a Shakespearian actor or a lawyer to be able to get out of this without even a slap on the wrist.
'Im so sorry I left my kid in the car all day and he died. Ill never do it again! Im a bad widdle boy!' He must have gotten the judge Bart Simpson gets every time, referring to the case of 'boys will be boys'. I dont give a flying fuck how upset this man is that his child is dead.
NO EXCUSE. You leave your child to die in a hot car - you are no longer allowed to have or care for children. This case sets a precedent. Whats next? 'I didnt mean to stab my wife in the skull. I slipped. Im so sorry.'
Violet1966
06-16-2003, 04:09 PM
Who do I blame in this on a personal level? Well this is gonna sound messed up, but if this guy was such a absent minded ass that he showed signs of stress because he can't handle running errands with children, then I blame the mother. If she had any inkling that he couldn't handle it and never suspected that fact would ever lead to a death, then she is guilty too. Yes...I know she didn't do anything...but a woman's instincts in these situations tend to be stronger sometimes, and if she knew he was capable of being so absent minded, then she shouldn't have entrusted him to handle these tasks with the kids. If her excuse is that she works and it was more convenient that he perform these tasks....then she should have gotten a job that was more flexible if her parental instincts were stronger. I'm sure the mother is beating herself up just as much as the father is. They both have a life long sentence in their own minds, I'm sure.
Should there be legal consequences? I think there should be, but in individual cases, after counseling and psychiatry/psychology write ups, jail time should be waved. This way no one can use it as a defense if they do it on purpose.
Maybe we should just lock him up in a van for eight hours with the windows closed. If he makes it, fine...if not... oh well.
Originally posted by cydweeks
Maybe we should just lock him up in a van for eight hours with the windows closed. If he makes it, fine...if not... oh well.
Your on the right track, but a grown man has a much better chance of survival in such conditions than a 7 MONTH old infant.
Eight weeks oughta do it.
Yeah...we could tell him ... oops, we forgot!
Yes and then tell the judge it was all a big mistake and we feel just AWFUL about.
:rolleyes:
Get a rope. Lets settle this up the right way. Lets both get revenge and justice while sending a strong public message at the same time!
While we are at lets fire the cops and investigators who investigated the case and also recall the DA for not prosecuting the guy. They are all a bunch of ignoramuses and bleeding heart liberals. None them obviously know dick.
If some of you don't have a stomach for lynching the guy lets at least cut off his balls so he can't have anymore kids and prevent any similar incidents. Remember you can't be too careful! :)
Geez, some of you are tough!
ditch
06-17-2003, 06:58 AM
Geez, some of you are tough!
A bit too tough. This guy should be legally responsible yes, but there was no intent to harm. His inexcusable absent mindedness is gut wrenching for a parent to understand but it doesn't warrant a firing squad.
Originally posted by ditch
A bit too tough. This guy should be legally responsible yes, but there was no intent to harm. His inexcusable absent mindedness is gut wrenching for a parent to understand but it doesn't warrant a firing squad.
I didnt suggest a firing squad, I suggested he be held accountable for his, as you say, 'inexcusable' actions that have clearly been excused.
Other reactions Im reading here to my insistence that this man be held accountable for involuntary manslaughter are frankly shocking. Im being too 'tough' on the guy who admits to commiting the involuntary manslaughter of his own infant? Gosh Im sorry. Ill try and foster a more developed sense of social apathy.
Stunning how the human ability to turn a blind eye improves as time and population increase. I guess thats why this case shocks me so much - that the guy can just walk, and that people can just say 'oh well' and 'dont be too tough on him, hes just been through alot, mistakenly slaughtering his own child and all'.
:(
Violet1966
06-17-2003, 06:25 PM
Maybe this is one of those things that you can only really relate to when you're a parent. I'd like to think that someone wouldn't purposely do this to a child because it's just so horrifying to even think it. Men really are not as instinctive with their offspring with things like this....the same as people believe that males and females are different because of caveman like instincts ingrained in us so deep we can't change it. This man wasn't supposed to be the one to think of the multitasking he was trying to do, and it killed a child. Now had it been the mother who did the same...I would be enraged at the thought of it. It's just when I think of a man doing it...I think what an idiot wife he must have that didn't think that this could ever happen if too many tasks were given to him in a day. Might sound sexist or something...but for a men to f up with this one...I believe it was unintentional and can't even imagine the grief he must be feeling.
If my husband did this to one of our kids....I'd go mental and cut him into little pieces probably...but I have to say I wouldn't put him in the position in the first place, by giving him a million things to do before work with a baby in the car and other kids to take care of.
Horrible thing to even have to think about. Unfortunately there are no laws passed to have people tested on ability and mentality, before they have children and the ones that will suffer the most will be those children :( If someone does something on accident and it's proven it was an accident and there's no reason to believe otherwise, then we have to treat it as an accident. How do we prove it was an accident? I think that's what's most scarey about this...that there will be some sick bastard that will do it on purpose and say it was an accident
:mad:
The worst pain and suffering in the world has got to be to lose a child. If this was an accident and this man and his wife loved the child more than anything, then they f'd up and will be in pain over it forever. Their life is not one to envy in any way shape or form because if it were me, there would be no freedom from my mind.
rofl uhhho. Yo guys... Violet says you men can't multi-task.
Fiona
06-17-2003, 08:19 PM
What Violet said? Sad, but true! :thumbsup: Hey you guys have a better upper body strength and control of your emotions, consider it even!
Sorry Violet, but that is horsecrap. It is not about multi tasking and a a womans ability to do it better than a man. That whole part of this is irrelevant.
Would you guys be so flippant about punishing this man if he let is kid drown in the tub? Say he forgot he put the baby in there and left to answer the phone? To say he is not culpable because he forgot is as ludicrous as using being drunk or high to alleviate oneself from responsibility. Oh, he forgot. He has guilt. Sure he has guilt, but where is the line drawn with regards to the responsibility of a parent? If I forget to lock up my gun and my child kills himself, I can be held accountable.
Whether he is punished by the law or not, I am not overly concerned with any form of justice with regards to this guy, but I do wish that our system would be consistent with regards to a parents responsibility for their kids.
That whole part of this is irrelevant.
It's also that type of sterotypical thinking men will have to overcome in order to have thier full parental rights considered and enforced. ;)
Fiona
06-17-2003, 08:47 PM
I should refrain from comment. BUT- rofl
okay CYD I agree with, Wapu I agree with, Dom I agree with and Violet I agree with... It's a sad story. I'm done with it.
Violet1966
06-17-2003, 11:50 PM
Originally posted by wapu
Sorry Violet, but that is horsecrap.
Sorry wapu but your "that is horsecrap" is horsecrap ;)
LMFAO *and getting ready to run*
Now I know some men will disagree because they are able to perform multitasking with little problem and are very good with children. This is very true and it's great. Some men are "trained" over time, just as women are, to handle these matters. Good to know there are men out there that can handle it and do it every day. I believe they are less caveman then many and are more in touch with their "feminine" side then most :)
*running*
Biker
06-17-2003, 11:52 PM
:friggin:
Violet1966
06-18-2003, 12:15 AM
Oh come on biker...if a friend can't tell off a friend...then who can you tell off? If you dissagree with me with the :friggin: , then tell me why you're swearing at what I said. I'm a big girl and you should know it.
I'm in a traditional family here and come from one. Man worked and woman stayed home with children. Men weren't expected to do anything more then work to bring home the bacon and be a good father and play once in a while. Discipline. I don't know many dads who are that comfortable with their children and chores/errands, that they can handle all that running around with numerous kids involved. The ones that do it, probably either come from a family where they learned it young, or had their significant other remind them 5 ga zillion times a day about what to do or what not to do. Or they simply have common sense and are cool with doing all the running around soccer mom kinda stuff and do it because they enjoy it? Are you going to say that the cool guy who takes on all the extras cause he loves it...is the norm??? Most of the time, it's the mother's responsibility to to coordinate and plan the routines and all that. Give the chores/errands out that concern the children. It's just the way it is a lot of the times. I have many many friends who are living in the same world. I know 2 men who are stay at home dads out of say 25 other friends who have husband's that work and don't know where the kids socks are kept. Even the stay at home dads aren't the ones who coordinate everything. The ones out there that can handle all this stuff are the exception I believe. They are exceptional and to be commended. They have somehow found the same instinct that women seem to have :)
Biker
06-18-2003, 12:19 AM
I'll relate a little story...
When my oldest was born, I let my grandparents have as much time as possible with her. My grandfather was grousing that he didn't get to do much with her (she was just a couple of months old). My grandmother kinda snorted and said something about him not changing the diapers to which he replied, "You never let me." How many mothers do the same thing?
Violet1966
06-18-2003, 12:32 AM
Originally posted by Biker
I'll relate a little story...
When my oldest was born, I let my grandparents have as much time as possible with her. My grandfather was grousing that he didn't get to do much with her (she was just a couple of months old). My grandmother kinda snorted and said something about him not changing the diapers to which he replied, "You never let me." How many mothers do the same thing?
Exactly :)
I'm guilty of this too and often find myself hoping that if God forbid I died tomorrow, he'd be ok with the kids. I think over time, as women and men become more and more equal in the workplace and it's more widespread that both parents work, that things will change. an evolution of the traditional parent gender roles...melding into two units who are at the same level regardless of gender. Until then it's the old fashioned way and you can't expect a man who never had to deal with it, to deal with it out of no where. I would honestly think it would take a long time till a man in a "woman's" role, got the hang of it. I can't picture my husband doing it overnight at least and he's really pretty good with the children.
This is just one of a total of three cases in the last few weeks where parents left their children alone in cars. One of these cases prompted the activation of the first ever Amber Alert here in southern Nevada.
On June third, 16 month-old Edwin Olvias was left in a running car while his mother Maria door ran into a shoe store. The car was stolen with little Edwin still in it. In the third case, a one year old girl was treated for dehydration after her mother left her in a car for about an hour. That case also has not been handed over to the D.A.'s office.
three cases in the past couple of weeks (http://www.kvbc.com/Global/story.asp?S=1321185&nav=15MVGOzc)
Seems instinct has nothing to do with it. Perhaps irresponsibility?
Violet1966
06-18-2003, 12:47 AM
See now to me, I'd say these women are animals and deserve harsh penalties for what they've done, but it's because I've been programmed to know better as a female. There are exceptions to the rules always. Two exceptions that I have no sympathy at all for :mad:
Originally posted by cydweeks
It's also that type of sterotypical thinking men will have to overcome in order to have thier full parental rights considered and enforced. ;)
I have no idea what your point is. The stereotype I need to get over is that men are just as responsible for their children as women are? Or are you referring to the stereotype where mothers should stay home with the children because they are better at it and the men should go out and work?
The irrelevant part I was referring too was the notion that he somehow is not as capable as the mother. What is irrelevant is his inability to drop the kid off at daycare and drink a cup of coffee at the same time. I am saying the gender and the circumstances surrounding this incident are irrelevant. He is the only person responsible for this child's death. He is the only one to blame.
What to do about it? Felony Charges and conviction with a sentence of probation and being barred from ever being responsible for another minor for as long as he lives. His punishment is the guilt he will carry with him. The charges and barring him from being in charge of minors is to protect society.
Originally posted by Violet1966
Sorry wapu but your "that is horsecrap" is horsecrap ;)
LMFAO *and getting ready to run*
Now I know some men will disagree because they are able to perform multitasking with little problem and are very good with children. This is very true and it's great. Some men are "trained" over time, just as women are, to handle these matters. Good to know there are men out there that can handle it and do it every day. I believe they are less caveman then many and are more in touch with their "feminine" side then most :)
*running*
What I was referring to as horsecrap is the notion that men are genetically engineered to have less affinity for their children. If I believed that, then I would also have to believe that men are not engineered to be monogamist. I would also have to be OK with an older man leaving his wife for the younger, more fertile, woman that he works with. I could then also say that women are engineered to be nurturers and therefor shouldn't be anything but nurses in the military and should never be cops.
I will say that there are many fundamental differences between the sexes, but I think it is horsecrap to say that a father forgetting his child in a hot car for 7 hours is in any way, shape, or form due to a genetic trait common among men.
Originally posted by wapu
I have no idea what your point is.
I apologize if I was not clear. the notion that men are somehow not as capable as a woman when it comes to rearing and caring for children is the stereotype/assumption that needs to be done away with.
Steve
06-18-2003, 10:17 AM
:) I struggle every day and constantly have to remind myself that I'm their father, not their friend or playmate (although I do play with them, of course). I often see women, because there're so many more of them, during the day, in stores, in public, and it all seems so effortless, what they're doing.
Then I just have to remind myself, it looks easy now, because their kid is behaving, and mine is still whining because she left her blankie home even after I reminded her 10 times to go and get it before we left.......;)
Violet1966
06-18-2003, 03:23 PM
Originally posted by cydweeks
I apologize if I was not clear. the notion that men are somehow not as capable as a woman when it comes to rearing and caring for children is the stereotype/assumption that needs to be done away with.
But...there are physiological differences in the sexes and brain function which are indeed different and can affect certain aspects of ones life I would have to think. There have been numerous studies on the female and male brains and the differences that truly do make us different. These studies can't be denied. Women's brains are more able to process multi tasking and men are more even emotioned as fiona mentioned I believe. Physical strength is irrelevant here because working out can change anyone's body strength, but how do we change our brains?? I believe these traits in humans are as uncontrollable as is choosing whether or not to be homosexual or not. If it's something in your brain chemistry or composition, it's just there. So I'd have to think this isn't stereotyping if it's something so deep that it is part of the physical make up of our brains.
joseftu
06-18-2003, 05:05 PM
Nature vs. nurture. How to untangle them?
Culture is extremely powerful, and always looks like "nature," from the inside.
How much of the difference (<i>Vive la difference!</i>) between men and women is physiological, and how much is cultural?
It's possible that only a Martian anthropologist would be able to answer for certain.
Even in your arguments for physiological differences, Violet, I see words like "programmed," "trained," and "raised."
This guy's culpable, and responsible, in my opinion, but what's the appropriate punishment? I have no idea. But I don't think the fact that he's a man, whether we're defining that difference culturally or physiologically, is any excuse at all.
I think fathers (male parents) who are responsible, involved and active every single day, and just as good at it as women, are becoming increasingly common as society becomes more accepting. Look at Steve, and others (hell, even me, to a lesser extent). Sure, we're exceptional. But not as much as we used to be.
I can't tell you how many women stopped me on the street when my daughter was young to lecture me, her father, about what I was doing wrong. "Zip up her coat, don't let her eat that, her hair is messy, her mittens are on the wrong hands (!)"
In every case, every case, they assumed that because they were women, they were naturally better equipped to make decisions about my daughter, a child they didn't even know. In every single case, they were wrong. But they felt like they had the right to give instructions.
How many men feel like they can walk up to strange women on the street and give them child-raising hints and tips, or warnings about their mistakes?
Steve
06-18-2003, 05:47 PM
Oh, God forbid, lol! Imagine the angry stares!
I think the central issue with this whole, sad affair is one of priorities. It is, I repeat, simply inexcusable when entrusted with the care of a child to make anything other than that care the first and paramount priority. Inexcusable!
I understand all about the errands to run, the chores to do, the work deadlines, the harried cell phone conference calls while driving from point A to B, I really do. I go through all that every day, as do millions of other men, and tens of millions of women.
But I always know where the priority is: my children. This poor moke lost sight of that, and his child paid dearly for his mistake. I don't know if women are, by nature or by nurture, more attuned to that priority. It's as good a reason as any I can offer for the traditional role women have played in childrearing.
But I do know that if men are to become equals in this area, we'd better start understanding and living that priority, right now.