View Full Version : Lying. Is it always bad or wrong? What is a lie?
In recent threads on WMD, Bush, and intelligence reports the words lie or lying got tossed around a lot. And it was always in the context of bad or immoral.
In those threads I made some post and in several instances I tried to address the issue of what constitutes a lie and are all lies bad. No one took me up in answering or addressing the question.
What is a lie?
Are all lies bad or immoral?
For instance isn’t telling someone their new hairstyle or clothing looks great when in fact you think it is terrible a lie?
If someone comes into the house where you and your friend lives and says he looking for your friend to kill them and you say that you just saw your friend leave, even though he is in the next room haven’t you lied. Have you committed an immoral act? Was your lie “wrong?”
Say your child is about to undergo a painful medical procedure but to ease their anxiety you tell them it won’t hurt aren’t you lying.
Is there are difference between lying for the national good as opposed to lying for personal political gain. (We will assume that the “national good” hypothetical is a fact for the basis of this discussion.)
So what do you think?
ShinyTop
06-12-2003, 12:27 AM
Yes, there can be good lies and you gave several good examples. A lie to not hurt feelings and does no other harm can be a good lie.
A lie for the national good is much tougher to identify. When people start talking about the national good it is simply uncanny how often the lie also serves their political interests. In almost every case a lie for the national good is bad in my opinion. You cannot predict history that well that the facts are bad for the country to know. And history without all the facts is hardly history, now is it?
Originally posted by ShinyTop
Yes, there can be good lies and you gave several good examples. A lie to not hurt feelings and does no other harm can be a good lie.
A lie for the national good is much tougher to identify. When people start talking about the national good it is simply uncanny how often the lie also serves their political interests. In almost every case a lie for the national good is bad in my opinion. You cannot predict history that well that the facts are bad for the country to know. And history without all the facts is hardly history, now is it?
That is why for the purpose of my question I built in the assumption for discussion that it really is for the national good. With that said how about a follow up? If it is for the national good is it a good lie?
By the way although Bush and the current situation raises this issue to the current discussion I am not asking about or in anyway commenting one way or the other about Bush and the whole WMD thing--just the hypothetical issue it raises.
Biker
06-12-2003, 12:33 AM
That's a toughie... What one would consider a perfectly good excuse for the "national good", another may find it equally repugnant. Can we excuse a lie, even when it's for the good of the nation?
ShinyTop
06-12-2003, 12:35 AM
I was not replying politically. I was really saying I cannot answer as I cannot conceive of a situation where there can be a lie that is for the national good. But you did start the thread with that assumption so I will drop out.
Originally posted by Biker
That's a toughie... What one would consider a perfectly good excuse for the "national good", another may find it equally repugnant. Can we excuse a lie, even when it's for the good of the nation?
Come on now! Last admonishment!:)
For the sake of this discussion we are ASSUMING and AGREEING it is for the national good! Stop waffling! ;)
And hopefully lets not just stick to that one single issue of national good--the topic is lying in general. (That comment is for all the readers of this thread Biker--not directed at you personally.)
Biker
06-12-2003, 12:38 AM
Yeah, I know... Lemme think on this one.. Considering I'm demanding integrity from my politicians, I'm not sure lying is part of that equation. ;)
Originally posted by ShinyTop
I was not replying politically. I was really saying I cannot answer as I cannot conceive of a situation where there can be a lie that is for the national good. But you did start the thread with that assumption so I will drop out.
Hopefully you will reconsider. Just one example to perhaps to give you pause.
Hypothetical, sort of: It is WWII and we are developing the Atom Bomb. For obvious reasons!
Now security reasons aside if we admit to working on the bomb the resulting controversy very likely at best will delay the development of the bomb while driving up the cost and at worse cause us to have to essentially stop seriously working on the bomb.
So we lie and deny that we are working on or even considering using such a device. We do so not for security reasons but to insure that the bomb is developed as soon as possible especially since we believe at the time the Germans are building one too!
How about the cuban missile crisis? Didn't Kennedy lie and say that he didn't make a deal with the Russians regarding Turkey?
Or do I have that wrong? Weren't you guys talking about that recently in another thread?
Matrix, I'm all confused.
To me, the situation usually does not matter. A lie is a lie is a lie. It may be "nice" to lie to your child to calm their fears about a painful medical procedure, but eventually they'll go through that pain, and they'll learn that Mommy and Daddy lied, and next time you tell them it's not gonna hurt, they're going to know you lied. I would think it would be better to tell your child "Baby, I won't lie to you - it's going to hurt, a lot. But only for a little while, and then you'll be fine. No more pain, and it's going to make you better." The child might be nervous, but afterwards, your kid is going to respect you and trust you more for being honest.
As far as a lie being bad, it depends. In the context of your friend's hairstyle, if your friend asks you your opinion, and you lie to them - and then they find out that you lied to them - I would think it's bad. If they don't find out, it's still bad, because you were unable to be honest. I would be more hurt knowing that a friend can't be honest with me and tell me the truth than if they told me my haircut sucked. Honest. I've ended nearly all my friendships because of that - because of lying. Lying is a big thing to me. If you can't be honest with me, I don't have time for you - I don't lie to anyone, and I expect the same in return.
In the context of the Iraq war, we were told there were weapons aimed right at us, and that it was imperative to go in and take Saddam out. Ok, I went along with the war because I thought our lives were in danger - I trusted our government. Now that the war is over, suddenly these weapons that were pointed right us can't be found. I've either been lied to by my government or Saddam didn't have weapons of that caliber. I do not doubt there will be weapons found, but the fact that nothing that endangered our lives as we were told has yet been found, which is odd seeing that we were told they were pointed right at us, makes me not trust our government any more.
The difference between the 3 lies above is that 2 of them didn't cost anyone their life. So if we're measuring lies on that basis, then I would say that lying to your kid and lying to your friend aren't as immoral and wrong as the government lying to it's people and sending our husbands and wives and brothers and sisters and children to fight and die.
Originally posted by cydweeks
How about the cuban missile crisis? Didn't Kennedy lie and say that he didn't make a deal with the Russians regarding Turkey?
Or do I have that wrong? Weren't you guys talking about that recently in another thread?
A good example, hypothetically, but unforunately not quite right. But close. He made a deal but the deal was simply kept secret. In fact THE condition of the deal with the USSR was that under no circumstances were they permitted to let be known that we made the deal.
But your good post raises two other good examples:
Is is a lie for the national good to withold information from the public or your citizens in the case where your are an elected leader.
What if Kennedy HAD been asked or the issue was raised about the alleged deal and he lied and denied it because the blanket condition was that neither side admit to it. Now it was in our national interest to get the missiles out of Cuba so wouldn't Kennedy's lie be in the national interest?
Misu, we are not talking about Bush, Iraq, or WMD and it is not part of the topic. We not making assumptions about that situation--leaving it out. Sorry if I didn't make that more clear in my original post.
I post this not to give you a hard time but I don't want others to read it and start off arguing about or making that subject or an issue of discussion for this thread or topic. :)
Well I mentioned it because that's what spurred this topic. The point I was making is that there are little, stupid lies that hurt feelings and then there are mondo gigantico earth-changing lies.
There's a difference, so in order to answer the question, you have to examine each lie.
Bottom line - lying will always be bad and wrong. The liar assumes that the person(s) they are telling the lie too can't handle the truth. And in many cases, that's right - the receiver won't be able to handle the truth - but it's their right to know the truth.
That's my take on it, anyway. Like I said, lying is a huge giant pet peeve of mine, so I feel very strongly about it.
IMO, a lie is not a lie is a lie. In situations of great national security it is unreasonable to think you can't lie. There is no way that you can protect a country and spill the beans and put it out there all the time. It's unreasonable to think that you can. And I daresay that history has not revealed all the lies that have been told in the past.
ShinyTop
06-12-2003, 01:17 AM
Matrix, Manhatten good example. No doubt that the project had to be top secret from the people in order to keep it under the radar of our enemy. After the war all the foibles and errors of the project were eventually revealed. And during the war the administration did reveal we were working on secret weapons, they just did not release facts to the public. Not sure that national secret and lie for the national good are the same thing.
Fiona
06-12-2003, 03:34 AM
I can only answer this on a personal level. To me all lying is intolerable... We do it. I try not to. I insist those close tome try not to as it's a BIG DEAL for me to forgive them. Sometimes we are forced into a situation where a lie is the best option. You make the choice. The one who lies, the ones being lied to and the lie itself are all factors in the "is it forgiveable" equation. IMO
melpomene
06-12-2003, 03:46 AM
There are degrees of lying.
Levels, and peoples own personal perspective's come into play here, along the lines of employment, education, religion, ethnicity, socio economic status etc.
Telling a child a lie, for their comfort. Not a problem.
Telling a wife she looks great. Not a problem.
Telling a cop, that you didnt see the killer. A problem.
Telling the tax department that you are an invalid when you arent. A problem.
Telling the nation, that we need to go into Iraq to lose the Iraqi regime because of WMD. In hindsight. 1. Control the oil fields 2. Restore a democracy. 3. Introduce contracts to the rebuilding of Iraq to the world community. 4. Geography of close proximity to other Arab nations in the middle east. No not a problem.
bruzzes
06-12-2003, 06:50 AM
I, for one will have to agree with Mel on this one. Sorry Misu...
The basic premise for what a lie IS ...is truth.
What is truth?
1 a archaic : FIDELITY, CONSTANCY b : sincerity in action, character, and utterance.
2 a (1) : the state of being the case : FACT (2) : the body of real things, events, and facts : ACTUALITY (3) often capitalized : a transcendent fundamental or spiritual reality b : a judgment, proposition, or idea that is true or accepted as true <truths of thermodynamics> c : the body of true statements and propositions.
3 a : the property (as of a statement) of being in accord with fact or reality b chiefly British : TRUE 2 c : fidelity to an original or to a standard.
1)sincerity in action: one can put the outcome of the action as paramount in importance. To make a child feel better...or to overcome your enemies. Still a valued judgement.
2)FACT (2) : the body of real things, events, and facts : It is "verified" that I killed a man. This may be a fact. But it can also be self-defense. Again, a valued judgement.
3)
fidelity to an original or to a standard. Social mores and cultures contribute to what a standard may be.
Fact: Poison is bad. But it may be good also.
Bad, if you use it on humans, good if you are killing cockroaches that invaded your home.
Used in small amounts, botulism becomes botox.
Cobra poison, heals...in small amounts.
Electricity is bad, if you stick your wet finger in the socket, good if you plug in your radio.
All valued judgements.
Is truth an absolute?
That is why I fear any good vs evil argument.
Whatever, had a whole thing typed out, but apparently I'm wrong. So I'm out.
Steve
06-12-2003, 03:18 PM
A lie is always wrong, taken by itself. That does not mean, though, that "honesty is the best policy". I use a simple test to judge whether a lie is "good" or "bad" :
1. Was it told with malicious intent?
2. Was it told to avoid legal action?
3. Was it told to cover up illegal action?
4. Does it hurt anyone, mentally, emotionally, or physically?
Stiofán
06-12-2003, 03:45 PM
There are situations where a lie is not bad. Remember, there are no absolutes in life.
My sister's young children, who are being raised by her ex who murdered her, have been told she died from cancer. The older children know the truth. Since prosecution at this time isn't happening, this is the best for the mental well being of the young kids. I don't see how a lie is a lie is a lie would be better.
Violet1966
06-12-2003, 03:55 PM
Lying is bad in any scenario. I have always been a very honest person and most of the time my honesty gets me in trouble. I can't say "your hair looks great" if it doesn't. Instead, I avoid the situation if possible, or say nothing at all. I might change the subject a bit just to get out of having to lie. I'm a very bad liar and the times I tried to do it, I was caught. So I don't do it anymore. Not lying is great. It's a good feeling to tell the truth or to just not say anything at all to avoid having to lie :)
Techie2000
06-12-2003, 04:17 PM
Lying for all intents and purposes is bad. Especially in a democracy, the people have a right to know what is going on. However in some cases it may be important to be more effective at telling the truth, and being a little more selective as to what truths are told.
Hypothetical with a genuine everyday basis in real life:
John Clark is a CIA Field Agent/Intelligence Officer. In order to carry out his various assignments he lies all the time. He assumes false identities, lies to obtain information, and so on. And as a SEPARATE issue it could be argued that he is doing it for our national interest. He is trying to locate the small nuke that the bad guys are known to be planning to smuggle into the US and detonate!
Well? Is Mr. Clark doing something wrong or immoral?
Finally back to the earlier scenario of the guy who comes into your house to kill your friend, and asks where he is because he wants to kill him. You can plainly see the guy is serious. You know your friend is in the next room. You tell the bad guy you just saw your friend leave the building or house about five minutes ago.
Now did you literally lie?
If so, is you lie immoral or bad?
Do all lies have an immoral stigma to them?
No, all lies do not have an immoral stigma to them.
melpomene
06-12-2003, 09:33 PM
Originally posted by Matrix
Hypothetical with a genuine everyday basis in real life:
John Clark is a CIA Field Agent/Intelligence Officer. In order to carry out his various assignments he lies all the time. He assumes false identities, lies to obtain information, and so on. And as a SEPARATE issue it could be argued that he is doing it for our national interest. He is trying to locate the small nuke that the bad guys are known to be planning to smuggle into the US and detonate!
Well? Is Mr. Clark doing something wrong or immoral?
Finally back to the earlier scenario of the guy who comes into your house to kill your friend, and asks where he is because he wants to kill him. You can plainly see the guy is serious. You know your friend is in the next room. You tell the bad guy you just saw your friend leave the building or house about five minutes ago.
Now did you literally lie?
If so, is you lie immoral or bad?
Do all lies have an immoral stigma to them?
First scenario:
Not a problem. But the CIA operative would have to stay within the boundaries of the "nations interest"
Second scenario:
Call the cops.
***************
Lastly, human nature is such, that "power corrupts"
ethics
06-12-2003, 09:48 PM
Originally posted by Misu
Whatever, had a whole thing typed out, but apparently I'm wrong. So I'm out.
Wish you would stick to your guns more often and not take many or most issues as "right or wrong."
In this thread, I don't believe there is a right or wrong, just degrees in human tolerance for lying and how one views them.
Fiona
06-12-2003, 10:32 PM
Originally posted by Misu
Whatever, had a whole thing typed out, but apparently I'm wrong. So I'm out. MISU, don't MAKE me come over there... Wrong or not, your opinion is valid... express it. You may educmacate somebody ;)
Ok, I'll post my opinion.
Even if the outcome of the lie is "good" - ie, your friend doesn't get her feelings hurt because you lied to her regarding her awful haircut - the lie is still wrong. Why is it still wrong? Because your friend values your opinion and asks you to tell her the truth, and you fail her as a friend by not telling her the truth that her haircut sucks. In fact, I would even go so far as saying you're a bad friend to her, for allowing her to go around in public looking like a mangey poodle.
In the case of a sick and frightened child - even though the outcome of the lie is "good" - ie, the child's fears are calmed - in the end, all you're teaching that child is that you're a liar and to not trust what you tell them.
I grew up with a father that lied to me all the time. I'm 27 years old, and to this day, I doubt every single thing he ever told me. Why? Because I busted him in his lies. He was trying to protect us with his lies, but you know what? You can't hide from the truth - and when the truth comes out and it's discovered that you lied, it doesn't matter the reasons why you lied - all that matters is that you lied, and no one will trust you.
If you can't tell someone the truth, then don't tell them anything. You don't do anyone any favors by lying - you may think you do and you may justify it 45000 different ways, but in the end, when the truth comes out, what people remember isn't your reasons for lying - it's the fact you lied, and nothing hurts more than being lied to by someone you put your trust in.
To me, when someone lies to me, they obviously aren't respecting me enough as an intelligent person. And that pisses me off. So I cannot understand how some people are ok with lying - how would you feel if you were being lied to? If you were the one asking for the honest opinion about your new perm, and your friend tells you it's nice - and then you overhear her telling someone how you look like you stuck your finger in a power outlet? Would you feel good that she lied to you to protect your feelings? Or would you be pissed off that she lied to you?
Originally posted by melpomene
Telling the tax department that you are an invalid when you aren't. A problem.
In this country the "tax department" is the Internal Revenue Service or IRS. A legal and corrupt state sponsored terrorist organization.
Lying to them is a duty that is a burden to be implemented by all fair-minded loyal Americans.
To cooperate with them is to be a collaborator!
Fiona
06-12-2003, 11:17 PM
Originally posted by Matrix
In this country the "tax department" is the Internal Revenue Service or IRS. A legal and corrupt state sponsored terrorist organization.
Lying to them is a duty that is a burden to be implemented by all fair-minded loyal Americans.
To cooperate with them is to be a collaborator! rofl :thumbsup: IRS = my son's initials, people are askeered of him rofl
melpomene
06-13-2003, 12:08 AM
Originally posted by Matrix
In this country the "tax department" is the Internal Revenue Service or IRS. A legal and corrupt state sponsored terrorist organization.
Lying to them is a duty that is a burden to be implemented by all fair-minded loyal Americans.
To cooperate with them is to be a collaborator!
rofl right got ya :thumbsup:
Techie2000
06-13-2003, 12:24 AM
Originally posted by fiona_campbell
rofl :thumbsup: IRS = my son's initials, people are askeered of him rofl That's a horrible thing to do to a human being...:haha:
Fiona
06-13-2003, 12:44 AM
He likes it, he's such a sweetheart... it's his little "bravado"
mikepd
06-13-2003, 04:21 AM
Ah, the IRS. At the height of the bad, old Cold War days, they announced and the late David Brinkley reported (and broke up laughing on air while doing so) that within 30 days of a full nuclear exchange between this country and the Soviet Union, the IRS was prepared with a contingency plan to collect all taxes due. In the event that any survivors had difficulty meeting a tax deadline, they were prepared to extend the deadline on a case by case basis. At this point, Brinkley was almost out of his chair, in a fit of restrained laughter.
The IRS was very serious about the whole thing. You do not mess with the IRS.
Not even the end of civilization as we know it, is an excuse. rofl
bruzzes
06-13-2003, 06:54 AM
Originally posted by Misu
Whatever, had a whole thing typed out, but apparently I'm wrong. So I'm out.
I am glad that you have not abandoned your values!
I hope my post was not the reason for the above remark.
I neither condemned nor condoned lying in that post. I merely asked that one must "know" the truth as a basis for what an "untruth" might be. And as we know, that is open to interpretation and is often based on what one values. One persons values may be not be similar to another's.
My argument is that what one sees as a lie, may also be seen as a truth. (depending on values)
It is easy to call it a rationalization or justification and so side step the actual definition of what we are talking about. Unless there is a concrete and universal definition of what is truth, which is near impossible to define on absolutes, then defining a "lie" also falls under that realm.
Originally posted by bruzzes
It is easy to call it a rationalization or justification and so side step the actual definition of what we are talking about. Unless there is a concrete and universal definition of what is truth, which is near impossible to define on absolutes, then defining a "lie" also falls under that realm.
So now the concept of truth is being questioned, as well?
Let me ask you a question:
If you're called up to the stand in a trial, and are told to tell the truth - do you have any question as to what they're asking of you? Or are you going to enter a philosophy debate with the judge as to what is "truth" (which I don't suggest you do, that'll just land you in jail for a week or two for contempt of court).
Truth is absolute - when something happens, there is only one way it happened - interpretation of truth is what is hard to define, because how you interpret something is colored by your own personal biases, and sometimes those biases lead one to lie.
melpomene
06-24-2003, 08:56 PM
Originally posted by Misu
Truth is absolute - when something happens, there is only one way it happened - interpretation of truth is what is hard to define, because how you interpret something is colored by your own personal biases, and sometimes those biases lead one to lie.
This is why we have the Law. The Law defines the standard of truth. The Law gives a guideline to the truth.
Vicky
06-24-2003, 09:01 PM
Originally posted by melpomene
This is why we have the Law. The Law defines the standard of truth. The Law gives a guideline to the truth.
The only problem is, that in many cases, the law is an ass.
The frightening thing is that you can't trust those who are supposed to enforce the laws either. There is too much corruption to rely on the law alone.