Where Breastfeeding Can Land you in Jail

[ethics]

According to The Smoking Gun (http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/stigler1.html):

An Oklahoma woman has been charged with allegedly breast-feeding someone else's baby at a day care center. Shannon Denney, a 32-year-old lawyer, was hit Friday with an outraging public decency count, a misdemeanor, for an incident late last year involving a newborn baby. According to prosecutors, Denney, whose own daughter attended the Pal's Daycare School in Stigler, Oklahoma, tried to comfort the crying baby. After trying to get the infant to drink from a bottle, Denney tried bouncing the child--but that didn't calm the kid either. Day care worker Jackie Freeman told cops that when she noticed the newborn had calmed down, she looked over and saw Denney breast feeding the baby. Denney allegedly told her daughter the breast feeding was "our little secret," according to a probable cause affidavit (http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/stigler2.html). The baby's mother learned of the incident in mid-April, which triggered the criminal charge against Denney, who is president of the Haskell County Bar Association. (2 pages).

I think cases like the above should be top notch in NOW's and other women's organizations priority. THIS is where they are needed. <!--mailing list and search includes-->

[Fiona]

I think cases like the above should be top notch in NOW's and other women's organizations priority. THIS is where they are needed.

explain further to poor little fiona so I am clear on your position.... THEN I will venture forth a comment :)

[joseftu]

I'm not clear on ethics' position either, but I'll chime in with mine! ;)

I think jail time certainly seems excessive, but the woman definitely did the wrong thing. She clearly knew ("this is our little secret"--an <b>extremely</b> inappropriate thing to say to a child) that she was wrong.

In any case, a <b>"newborn"</b> baby was in a day-care center? This whole story sounds extremely suspicious to me.

[ethics]

Sorry for the ambigious post. To be blunt, the woman did something that helped the child. She breastfed it, on par with sticking a bottle in the mouth, at least to me based on the age of the woman and the infant.

[joseftu]

I don't want any stranger (which is all this woman was) putting any body part into my infant's mouth without my knowledge and permission.

I wouldn't want her to pick a bottle, either, but it would be a little better.

She wasn't working at the day-care center, she's not licensed, trained, registered, she's basically just some weirdo who likes to go around putting her breast in babies' mouths (for all we know).

[ethics]

Originally posted by joseftu
She wasn't working at the day-care center, she's not licensed, trained, registered, she's basically just some weirdo who likes to go around putting her breast in babies' mouths (for all we know).

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I need to look for her then and wear a diaper or something.

I disagree joseftu, and frankly am a bit surprised to hear something like this from a staunch liberal. A weirdo would have just neglected to do anything to make the baby stop crying and you make a body part like a breast sound as if she was sticking her ass in to the babe's mouth? A body is a beautiful thing, especially a body part like the breast.&nbsp;You also make it sound like she needed a license to make a baby feel better? I mean, coming from Stanley Foo or Matrix, I could have guessed the lawyer in that statement, but from an educator?

For the record, Breastmilk is much better for any babe than a bottle.

Sorry, will have to agree to disagree.

[Misu]

Originally posted by ethics
Sorry for the ambigious post. To be blunt, the woman did something that helped the child. She breastfed it, on par with sticking a bottle in the mouth, at least to me based on the age of the woman and the infant.

I would have agreed with the NOW comment if it were her own child. But it wasn't her kid. Breast feeding is a very personal thing - who knows if this woman was even healthy and god knows what she could have passed on to the child???

[Fiona]

I understand your position MISU, mine is the opposite... I would be upset also if you breastfed my child... but it's also understandable... (and I've done it! sueme...) it's a very natural thing that makes this Modern (?) world go EEK! :eek:

[Misu]

You know, the daycare should TOTALLY get sued, as well. Why did this daycare allow this woman access to ANOTHER child that wasn't her own?

And why didn't the incident get reported to authorities right away? If that were my baby, I'd be suing for everything the daycare owners own, because if I send my child to daycare, and anyone can come in and stick their breast in my babies mouth and proceed to breastfeed my child... Dude, that's wrong.

I've got nothing against a mother breastfeeding her own baby - but don't touch my kid. God knows what is in your breastmilk.

[ethics]

Originally posted by Misu
Iwas even healthy and god knows what she could have passed on to the child???

THe fact is that she was healthy, she knew she was healthy and there's not much that CAN be passed down to a kid through breastfeeding. I know AIDS can be passed off but that's an extreme case?

Dunno.

[cdw]

I guess it's not really logical to be bothered by it, but it sure as hell strikes me as really weird. I don't think they even did this in the communes of the 60's.

[cdw]

Where does it say she didn't work there? Is there another part of the story I'm missing?

[Fiona]

oh I beg to differ... I can think of 3 women right off I can go get for ya who have talked about how common this was... and how WEIRD we all are now... it's expected in our increasingly uptight society... hell I just slid over to republican this year! what IS the world coming to?

[Misu]

Not much that can be passed on through breast milk??

Anything that woman ingests, be it coffee, drugs, alcohol, even prescription medications and OTC pills, get passed on to the child through breast milk, in just as strong a dose as what the mother received, except for an infant, it's must stronger.

If she smokes, nicotine is something like 4x as potent to the baby via breastmilk than to the mother (i need to double-check with my book on this one, but I'm almost positive it's 4x's as strong).

The fact it goes through the mother first doesn't mean whatever she ingested is somehow filtered. This is exactly why, when a woman is breastfeeding, doctors will tell you to not take ANYTHING - no alcohol, no pills, avoid certain types of foods, etc - and if you do need to take medications, they tell you not to breastfeed your child.

We don't know what this woman was on. Any little thing she could have taken (like coffee or cigarettes) goes straight into the breastmilk. That's not a chance any sane mother would take on their child - which is exactly what makes this case so unbelievable (to me, anyway)

[Misu]

I want to clarify why I'm freaking out over this:

This woman, who picked up a crying baby and proceeded to breastfeed the child, was a STRANGER. To me, it's akin to a person coming up to the daycare and handing a kid some sort of food (like candy or milk or whatever) - without the permission andor knowledge of that child's parent.

I'm also totally in shock that the daycare allowed it to happen and did not report it either to the parent of the child or authorities.

[Fiona]

I understand MISU , it's upsetting... it's not that they handled it correctly... but I think they are making a mountain out of a mole hile (so to speak )

[cdw]

Really Fiona? I never heard of it before.

It would bother me. I know this isn't exactly the same but it would be akin to someone going down on my husband because he had a hard on. Without my permission, you don't have that right. But, that's me.

[Biker]

I dont' know.. Fiona, think what you would have done if one of your children was breastfed in a daycare by someone you didn't know. And a non relative to boot.

[Fiona]

I know biker, i stated above I would be a little upset... but not more than ANYONE handling my baby other than my preference...but my newborn wouldn't be in a day care center either... so ?

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that baby is more likely to contract serious diseases from the kids in the center... and the workers who never follow code... :)

[Misu]

Fiona, you would seriously not freak out if some stranger breastfed your child? Knowing what can be passed through in breastmilk, you still wouldn't freak out?

Maybe I'm just really distrustful of people, but you know - weirdos never did give me a reason to trust them.

[Fiona]

like I said... I understand... I may freak out momentarily... I do not think it's a crime.

[ethics]

Actually, I have to apologize to all, especially joseftu, who probably knew about this issue more than I did. I was more clueless on this than I knew.

When asked about this issue, my wife came down on me hard and mentioned something worse than potential for disease to be passed down. She had a friend who (in the old SU this was a common practice) who lost a child because the maternity ward would swap to mothers who HAD milk. Unfortunately, one mother didn't mention, probably more out of ignorance, that she took antibiotics. In old SU, AB's were popped like sugar candy, and this was passed down to an infant who was allergic to AB's.

My wife also mentioned smoking mothers, and other distasteful habbits that would be passed down to the infant. The only thing she agreed with me is that it was not a crime but something other women should not do, especially in a litigous society like the US.

Once again, I hope you all forgive an ignorant jerk.

[Fiona]

lol it's okay ethics... I understand your reasoning... they never said the woman had milk either... anyway again.. i dont think it's RIGHT. I don't like it... but i dont think its a crime.

[Robert Harris]

Ethics, I always am prepared to forgive an ignorant jerk.

Now get that weird woman away from strange babies and send her to...

Oh, never mind. :)

[joseftu]

Like I said, jail time would be excessive, even criminal charges aren't called for...but she did the wrong thing.

When my daughter was little, sucking on my finger used to sometimes make her feel better when she was teething.

But if I saw a stranger's baby crying, and I put my finger in her mouth, I'd expect a punch in the nose from the mom or dad.

And health problems from fingers are far less likely than from breast milk. Breastfeeding is great, for health and bonding, but not from strangers.

(And ethics, if you were really an ignorant jerk, you wouldn't have such a smart wife! ;))

[ShinyTop]

Whatever it takes to:

one: get the nurser's attention so she never contemplates this again.

two: get the attention of the daycare so they oversee the children much, much better.


I would be very upset. Not to be allowed.

[EMIG]

We had Indian food once, when my wife was still breastfeeding our first. We were young and foolish. She ordered the Curry Chicken. The kid's feces were orange for a week, and he screamed non-stop for somewhat longer than that. You would too if your ass was on fire.

I'm down on unsolicited wet-nursing.

[Violet1966]

Breast feeding HIV mothers who are fortunate enough to have non HIV children, are medically advised not to breastfeed. I would have been furious myself and wanted this woman prosecuted. Sticking body parts in babies mouths by strangers, just doesn't fly with me I'm sorry. Since there is risk of life threatening disease, I'd want to see this woman go to court and be ordered some kind of educational classes to teach her about diseases and what you're not supposed to do with other people's kids. Massive amounts of community service would make me feel justice would done. I realize she had good intentions...but her ignorance disgusts me. I'm sorry...that's how I feel. I would flip the f out if this happened to one of my children. :mad:

edit: Oh and I'd ask the court to go easier on her, if she agreed to show my pediatrician her medical records and had massive tests done at my request.

[IamZed]

What an interesting subject. I would have not thought about the medicine/diet concerns brought up but I have never had a child, just kind of been around them. Not to be disrespectful to the male opinions expressed, it seems to me to be an issue to be decided on by mothers alone. Husbands will obey. It’s one of those issues.
On the surface it doesn’t seem like intent to harm to me, just misguided intent to help. That’s why I should not be consulted in these matters. Women have to be handed the call on many issues involving child raising. Men like to think they are as concerned and knowledgeable as their wives. Nope. If we actually had the children ourselves we would.
So I find this interesting. I am stupid enough to make the mistake joseftu described. I would be concerned about the clenlieness of my finger before I would put it into a strange babys mouth. However, if my child was out of my sight and upon my return I found a strange woman nursing it I would fear she was coveting it.
This is a mothers call and that’s all.

[Misu]

They were talking about this on the radio this morning, and I could not believe what one of the guys on the radio said - that it wasn't a big deal.

The woman on the show proceeded to give the men on the show a lesson on breastmilk and how the female human body is not a filter.

Soon after, the head radio personality officially closed the topic by saying "That's it, no more talking about breastfeeding!"

[Steve]

Nursemaids used to be common in our society, before the advent of nutritous infant formula. They were, however, known to the mothers of the infants and were in most cases, iirc, employees, along the line of butler or cook. In fact, I believe the practice during Victorian times was to hire young maids who could double as nursemaids.

In any case, I would just observe that, today, it is extremely uncommon to hear of a woman breast-feeding another's infant, even if the two woman are close friends. I am, in fact, completely unaware of the practice, and we used a lactation consultant when our first child was born; I'm sure she would have mentioned it as an alternative form of breast-feeding.

To me, then, this is a bizarre case. I can't imagine what would have prompted the woman to breast-feed the child. A bottle would done the trick, if held properly.

Given the apparent lack of precedent if today's culture, I'd say she did something very out of the ordinary. Criminal, though? IMO, not.

[cdw]

they never said the woman had milk either...

Who, the "other" woman? That never even occured to me. If she didn't then she's REALLY REALLY weird.

[Misu]

Steven - if it turns out the woman is a heavy smoker or was taking prescription medication, and let's say the baby did suckle, would it be criminal then?

[Steve]

Oh, no doubt, if she endangered the infant by passing something through her own breast milk, then, obviously, the least of the charges that should be brought would be child endangerment. But the news accounts don't mention any of that. Plus, and even though I think she's slightly fruity just because of what she did, I'll give her the benefit of the doubt: any woman that would do something like that to comfort an infant probably wouldn't have done so if she knew she was on meds, or ill, or something like that. Probably.

I find the double-standard to be fairly hypocritical, though. The natural mother can smoke three packs a day and drink like a fish, but no one will do anything to prevent her breast-feeding her own child, besides counseling her. Let a stranger do it, though, and it becomes potential grounds for child endangerment?

[IamZed]

I am pretty sure that when I was a child I was nursed by other women than my mother. The great crime is that I don’t remember it.

[Misu]

Stevent, I totally agree with you on the double-standard. Whenever I see an obviously pregnant woman smoking or taking a drink, it takes me all I can muster to not go over to her and smack the cigarette or drink out of her hand and kick her in the face for her stupidity. When I see parents smoking around their children, I get the same feeling.

I would totally support an addendum to the child endangerment laws, stating that a parent who willingly exposes their children to drugs are in violation of such laws. Maybe then people with kids would behave as they should - responsible parents. What sucks is the fact that they have to be forced to do something that SHOULD come natural to them.

[cdw]

I wonder...
How many of you here were born to a mother that did not smoke and did not drink alcohol when she was pregnant?

[Fiona]

LOL that's true CYD... and we alllllllllllllllllll f***** up! :)

[Misu]

My mom did not drink but did smoke while pregnant with me. As soon as I was born (ill might I add), she quit smoking. She had my brother smoke and alcohol free.

[LissaKay]

Originally posted by stevent
In any case, I would just observe that, today, it is extremely uncommon to hear of a woman breast-feeding another's infant, even if the two woman are close friends. I am, in fact, completely unaware of the practice, and we used a lactation consultant when our first child was born; I'm sure she would have mentioned it as an alternative form of breast-feeding.

To me, then, this is a bizarre case. I can't imagine what would have prompted the woman to breast-feed the child. A bottle would done the trick, if held properly.

Given the apparent lack of precedent if today's culture, I'd say she did something very out of the ordinary. Criminal, though? IMO, not.

At the risk of being labeled a freak here, I will share this ...

Many years ago, about 13 I do believe, I was a natural childbirth educator and an assistant midwife. One of the mothers-to-be in a childbirth class was a 14 year old girl. She planned to give birth at home with the midwife I was apprenticing with and then give the baby up for adoption.

She had a long, grueling labor ... I was present for most of it. When the baby finally arrived, the young mom was exhausted and went immediately to sleep. The baby, while healthy, needed nourishment and soon to keep his blood sugar from dropping. The adoptive mother was planning to breastfeed (it IS possible!) but was not due to arrive to pick up the child for several more hours. Birth mom did not want to nurse at all, both to avoid stimulating her milk supply and she didn't want to bond with the baby since she had to give him up. We were in a quandry.

My daughter at the time was about 10 months old and still nursing. So ... I wet-nursed the newborn. When the adoptive mom arrived, we did tell her and she was cool with it. I was a tad uncomfortable with though ... but not for the reasons one might suppose. After I had nursed the child for several minutes, I began to bond with him. It was a really weird emotional thing, and it may have been partially due to my close relationship with the baby's mother and grandmother ... or maybe the fact that I too was adopted and I felt that commonality with the child. I don't think I would do it again except in dire circumstances.

The practice of mothers nursing each other's children, to help each other out is not uncommon or strange. Neither is sleeping family-style, nursing into toddlerhood or giving birth at home. At least, not until the last 100 years or so.

In any case, I don't think the woman who nursed the child at the daycare should be criminally charged. I can see the parents filing a civil suit though. I would be outraged if it were my child. Hell, I got antsy whenever strangers patted my kids on the head.

[Steve]

My mother has never smoked, and never drank alcohol when she was pregnant. In fact, I probably drink more alcohol in six months than she has her entire life.

The known dangers of using alcohol, tobacco, or illegal drugs are just too severe to countenance anything other than complete abstinence during pregnancy.

[ethics]

Why would anyone label you a freak, Demi? Hell, in the old SU it was a common thing and I am sure it probably saved a few lives.

[cdw]

I read in another article that this woman did not work for the daycare, she had her daughter attending there. She bought the place after the "incident" and once the other mother got wind of what had happened, she closed it down.
I dunno... I wouldn't like it but I probably would have let it go.

[dmdvt]

I know I would freak if someone had breastfed my baby.
That is what breast pumps are for.

[ethics]

Originally posted by dmdvt
I know I would freak if someone had breastfed my baby.
That is what breast pumps are for.

She did it to console the kid though, not because his own mom couldn't. Most women (including this forum) would freak nevertheless though.