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ethics
05-27-2003, 08:21 PM
The side-effect of the post WWII American love-affair with the automobile and need for space to make the Baby Boom, the suburb has been portrayed as both a part of the American Dream and a part of everything that was wrong about it. Their tendency to expand exponentially, their reliance on cars for transportation, and their exclusionary nature have made the suburbs targets for urban planners (http://www.planning.org/), in particular the buregeoning New Urbanism (http://www.planning.org/newurbanism/index.htm) movement. For many that wonder why someone like me lives in Brooklyn, this is part of the issue. New Urbanism, however, might change all that.

Read on.

New Urbanism advocates communities built on the human-scale, with less reliance on automobile transport and greater emphasis on mass-transit, and with more concentrated development encouraging businesses and offices to be within walking distance of residential areas. Also key are its ideas of Smart Growth (http://www.smartgrowth.org/Default.asp?res=1024),or limiting expansion, so that the area maintains its decidedly anti-auto character.

To encourage their ideas, New Urbanists are taking a new approach: treating suburban sprawl as a public health hazard.

Last year, the Sierra Club (Yes, I know, consider the source but let's debate those issues first and not dismiss them right away) issued an article, Ten Reasons Why Sprawl Is Hazardous to Your Health (http://www.sierraclub.org/sierra/200203/lol5.asp).And in an April 2003 article (http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2003/0304.longman.html) of the Washington Monthly, Phillip J. Longman writes that the combined ills of the suburbs' automobile-dependency, including car accidents (see my next thread on this), lack of exercise, stress, self-medication, and social-isolation contribute to a collective public health crisis. The problem of lack of exercise alone, he claims, costs taxpayers $76.6 billion a year, not to mention our lives.

The new approach is apparently working, as some suburban communities are beginning to embrace less automobile-dependent planning and zoning laws. Colin Woodward writes for the Christian Science Monitor (ttp://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0522/p16s01-sten.html) that Dunstan Crossing, a new subdivision development in the town of Scarborough, Maine, will incorporate New Urbanism's ideas of higher-density housing, more open space, and perhaps most importantly, a more walkable community. The development bucks the trend throughout state of Maine, whose largest city, Portland, was named the city hit hardest by urban sprawl by the Brookings Institute, and whose rural areas were converted into suburbs, growing at a rate of ten-percent.

Not everyone is happy with the ideas of New Urbanism, or its attempts to link urban planning with public health. The libertarian Reason Public Policy Institute's Chris Fiscelli issued an article, Smart Growth Type's Dumb Rhetoric (http://www.rppi.org/smartgrowthtypes.html) that the emphasis on limiting growth is "social engineering" and that New Urbanists should "stop trying to kill the American Dream." 

Most of us aren't foolish enough to believe that a particular community design is the answer to complex pollution or health problems. And we work long and hard so that we can afford to choose how, and where, we want to live. For some of us, that means living it up in Newport Beach. For others, that means life in a planned community in Brea or Irvine. And for a lot of us, it simply means getting away from downtown and having a house with a small yard. It's what we've dreamed of.

Is Fiscelli right? Does the right to live where we damned well please override public health? Or are the New Urbanists correct in stating that we should encourage walkable communities, because it's what we want anyway? IS it what we want?

Personally, I love the health reasons but that would not be the crux of the decision. I love mass transit and I think that this type of a system, vs. the automobile is not only healthier but lessens our dependencies on the Middle Eastern countries and oil in general. I realize many love their cars and highways and I am not advocating losing that, I am, however, thinking about minimizing it for pleasure instead of getting to and from work?

Techie2000
05-27-2003, 08:40 PM
Who cares about isolation or health. Sure apartments and stuff may be more efficient, but I like all the trees and nature, and the bike path...:) I like having my own yard. My own driveway, and not a parking garage.

cdw
05-27-2003, 08:45 PM
Why can't "they" who ever they are, leave us the hell alone?
Why does somebody else get to decide what is good for me, how I should live, what type and amount of exercise I should get, etc.

Who woke up one morning and decided it's their right?
And who said the subway and the bus are healthy anyway? Leave us the hell alone! When I wanna ride a bus...I'll buy one.

ethics
05-27-2003, 08:56 PM
Originally posted by cydweeks

Who woke up one morning and decided it's their right?
And who said the subway and the bus are healthy anyway? Leave us the hell alone! When I wanna ride a bus...I'll buy one.

 

DAMNNNNNNNNNNN Cyd! I know it was a bit of a rough day but... can I buy a bus FOR you? rofl

cdw
05-27-2003, 09:01 PM
rofl I am outta hand today, aren't I? Must be the meds or lack there of.

ethics
05-27-2003, 09:03 PM
I need some too, dammit!

SixofNine
05-28-2003, 09:19 AM
I don't know about the social isolation aspect of sprawl.  I moved to a fairly new suburban community in eastern Loudoun County, Virginia in 1995.  If I worked in downtown D.C. that would be about a 35-mile commute one-way.  I'm a consultant so I wind up in differerent locations, thought I did have an 80-mile round trip commute to suburban Maryland for over two years.  Our homes are pretty close to each other - our quarter-acre lot is one of the largest in our neighborhood. 

The neighbors see a lot of each other.  Perhaps because we all moved into a new development at the same time and many of us have young children there was an impetus to congregate.  We have annual kids' "parades" in our neighborhood on July 4th and Halloween, we have neighborhood cookouts, there's a host of play groups for the kids, etc.  Social isolation is not a problem in our little part of The Sprawl (as William Gibson named the future unbroken urban area from New York to Atlanta in his cyberpunk novels).

The New Urbanists also need to deal explicitly with another issue.  Many of move out to the burbs to buy affordable housing of reasonable size in an area with good public schools.  And hey, there's nothing more American than firing up the grill on a hot summer day with a cold one in one hand and a spatula in the other. :)

The New Urbanists do have a point, and some of the "new urban" developments in suburbia are appealing, but as others have intimated the market has to be the driver of this - social engineering is difficult and extremely unpopular in these parts. :)

I have used the commuter bus and the Metro, and it would be great to telecommute or to have more employment opportunities nearby.  However, given the environment that many of us found, we did the best thing for ourselves and our kids.

Brian

ethics
05-28-2003, 09:28 AM
Originally posted by SixofNine

The New Urbanists also need to deal explicitly with another issue.  Many of move out to the burbs to buy affordable housing of reasonable size in an area with good public schools.  And hey, there's nothing more American than firing up the grill on a hot summer day with a cold one in one hand and a spatula in the other. :)



You didn't elaborate what that problem was, or did you mean what you said in the next paragraph? The New Urbanists do have a point, and some of the "new urban" developments in suburbia are appealing, but as others have intimated the market has to be the driver of this - social engineering is difficult and extremely unpopular in these parts.

Sorry, trying to understand your post a bit better. :)

Biker
05-28-2003, 09:37 AM
When mass transit becomes convenient and effective, then it might work. Until then, I'll drive.

SixofNine
05-28-2003, 09:42 AM
Originally posted by ethics
You didn't elaborate what that problem was, or did you mean what you said in the next paragraph?

I was implying (not too well, I guess :) ) that the choice right now is "old urban" (i.e., overpriced housing and lousy public schools), or the burbs.

Sorry, trying to understand your post a bit better. :)

You're a better man than I am - trying to understand what I write. :)

All I was trying to say is don't legislate New Urbanism, let the market drive it.  Developers are not idiots (well, some, anyway).  They see the problems that sprawl has caused and some of them are already taking steps to offer alternatives.  There was an article in Saturday's Washington Post about how the Charles Smith company, the developer of Crystal City in northern Virginia, plans to make it a more person-friendly community, adding sidewalks, making streets two-way (to make it less car-friendly), etc.

Brian

ethics
05-28-2003, 09:47 AM
Oh, I totally agree, Brian. I am not for legislating anything for many reasons. If there's a need, some form of allure towards New Urbanism, then there's no need for legislature.

Techie2000
05-28-2003, 04:08 PM
My simple explanation of why I don't like mass transit...

Techie like car. Techie drive car. Techie go fast.

Techie don't like bus. Techie sit in bus idlely bored. Techie go slow.

Stiofán
05-28-2003, 04:49 PM
Originally posted by cydweeks
rofl I am outta hand today, aren't I? Must be the meds or lack there of.

No it's that illness I wish more in America would come down with - libertarianism.

criblizard
05-29-2003, 12:29 AM
I admit it. I grew up in the sticks

I lived in the city during college (New Brunswick NJ) and moved to Princeton when I got married. I moved back to my area 8 years ago into a neighborhood of 100 year old homes. Life was good.

I have always had a bit of a commute (50 miles one way). When I moved back my ride was 45 minutes, now it is nearly 2 hours in the morning. The reason, well my area is one of the fastest growing areas in NJ. Please don;t take offense to the following.

When all the stuck up city slicker business criminals came here with their SUVs (Like they need them), their Mcmansions (can someone say compensating for a certain deficiency), and their rudeness (despite your bitching I will still mow my own lawn) they took away the character of the region.

This Urbanism crap is a way for people to, once again, join a culture and try to change it to the culture they left. My area was a farming area, but now farmers are being sued because the city people didn;t realize that farms, while quaint in their over-priced antique magazines, smell like cow shit.

I heartily reject this notion. I moved back, because I wanted the quiet and relaxed non-urban atmosphere. I did not move back in the hope that I could ride a train to work or be forced to deal with untold numbers of self absorbed groutclowns that think the locale needs to be turned into a never ending series of convenience establishments catering to the whims of the newly-relocated assistant directors of learned helplessness.

You want the city live there don't drop steamers in my gene pool.

Pardon the rant :)

eakes
05-29-2003, 12:54 AM
Faddish, pop-culture trying to stamp people into little autobots. Fie on planned communities and the horse they rode in on.
I wouldn't live in such a place. If I want to construct a 100 foot tower in my back yard with a 75 meter beam and surround its base with two or three 10 foot dishes, I should be able to without getting an OK from some nanny group. If my neighbor wants to till up his from yard and plant a garden, I'll loan him my tiller.
People are not robots, they are individuals and any attempt to cookie-cutter their live styles is bound for failure.

Coot
05-29-2003, 01:19 AM
Yep, I moved to where I live precisely because it isn't LA. I drive 65 miles each way to work, and while I hate the drive, I hated living in LA County even worse.

What Crib is describing is exactly what the city council here is trying to do. The city charter and the city plan both called for a maximum build out. The city is currently eyeballing options to violate all of this and grow the city bigger. A pox on them and their families for even considering this. What they have their eye on of course is more tax revenue. Now what I don't understand in all of this is why they would be looking for more money? If the city is self sustaining at its current size, why would they need more? Unless its that fap from the state about witholding funds if they don't build more housing.

Personally, I would love nothing more than a statewide building moratorium on new housing...other than to replace an existing domicile. They are far less likely to come if they stand a much lesser chance of having a place to live. Southern California is adding 6000 people a day, primarily poor people...we're saturated, the infrastructure simply won't support it. We have hospitals threatening bankruptcy as the cost to LA County is $350 Million a year to provide medical benefits to poor immigrants and the county can't pay the bill.

What the Sierra Club, et. al., is proposing by this concept of 'New Urbanism' is effectively, a concept of lowered expectations. They are suggesting that everyone has to take a hit as far as their lifestyle goes in order to accomodate and provide minimum services for everyone.

This what happens when you start getting to the point where you have more people riding in the cart than you have pulling it...they [the neo-socialist organizations] would chastise and punish the individual for pursuing freedoms and declare it greedy overconsumption.

I guess the common sense approach that would dictate that by reducing the population in the heavy urban areas by 15-18 million poor immigrants would free up substantial resources is anathema.

Stiofán
05-29-2003, 01:46 PM
Coot, you are in serious danger of making real sense here. Watch it.

ShinyTop
05-29-2003, 03:07 PM
Coot, those 15-18 million people you want to remove are voting too. Why do they care if they bankrupt the county and everybody in it? They are not losing anything.

Steve
05-29-2003, 03:32 PM
Nothing like this will happen, at least not while we're still alive. Perhaps when the oil runs out and the costs of private transportation become exorbitant, maybe then we'll see a return to urban population centers.

There has been talk in this area for many years of creating a rail commuter line between here and Philadelphia, with stops along the way. Recently, a decent proposal came out, and it looked like the process of securing funding was beginning.

Then the Administration announced that all new transportation projects (non-highway) would require 50% local investment, meaning the government would only contribute 50% toward the costs, plus there would be no guarantees of following through until the project was completed.

No federal match, no comittment guarantee...no commuter rail line to Philadelphia.

It's just as well; we have enough crime problems without the thugs from Philly coming up here on cheap public transport.

Coot
05-29-2003, 05:33 PM
Originally posted by ShinyTop
Coot, those 15-18 million people you want to remove are voting too. Why do they care if they bankrupt the county and everybody in it? They are not losing anything.

I'm fairly certain they're not voting...as much as the dems would like to register them to vote, I'm pretty sure they're still working on getting all the dead Indians up in South Dakota registered.

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