Women's Only Health Club

[ethics]

Wisconsin governor Jim Doyle has signed a bill that would allow health clubs to discriminate against men and allow only women to join. The act, a reaction to a lawsuit filed against one of these clubs, legalizes the existing practice of Curves for Women, a women-only health club with hundreds of locations in Wisconsin.

Women say that Curves fills an important need, because they strongly dislike working out in front of men. 'It's just a lot more comfortable in here knowing that I don't have to worry about some guy hitting on me,' said Curves member Kellie Davis. 'I'm getting too old to put on Spandex.' Doyle said signing the bill would promote the health of women, in a state that once held the title of fattest state in the union. '

<a href="http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20030520/ap_on_el_st_lo/wisconsin_gyms_2">full story here.</a>

You know, I feel comfortable with no Muslims in my train, I have an idea.

[Stiofán]

I wonder what NOW thinks of this. I always say, be careful of what you wish for, as you may end up getting it.

[ethics]

Forget NOW, this IS discrimination, folks, and I love how the Government is promoting this. Like I said, comfort is not a reason to break rights.

A hundred years ago, white men were at comfort without having any blacks to make them feel uneasy at private establishments. Less than 70 years ago, men felt more comfrotable without women voting.

[cdw]

Sen. Judy Robson opposed the bill, fearing someone could use the definition to justify a men-only golf course or similar venture.

OH NO!!! NO, not a MEN'S golf course!!!
for god's sakes. What is the big deal? We're talking about allowing a business to have the choice to be co-ed or not. I belonged to a women's only club for a couple of years. It was great. No men bothering you, bothering your friend. It was a relaxed atmosphere that women just went and sweat it out.
What is the big deal??

[ethics]

The big deal is because there are double standards, Cyd. I'd be all for a woman's only club if there were such thing as a place where men can hang out? Like Hooters perhaps?

[cdw]

A hundred years ago, white men were at comfort without having any blacks to make them feel uneasy at private establishments. Less than 70 years ago, men felt more comfrotable without women voting.

Yes and we're all more on an even keel these days and we aren't going back to the old days. We should be swinging back to where it really doesn't matter much anymore because there is a BALANCE. There didn't used to be one and unfortunately, the pendulum had to swing waaaay the other way to counteract it.
Perhaps we've finally gotten it together enough that we can have co-ed, female only and male only kind of exercising. Maybe after that we can have smoking and then non-smoking restaurants with those that also have both in seperate rooms.

Gimme a break. If i want to sweat and exercise and be with other women, so what? Get your own gym.

[cdw]

Eithics, you can have all the Hooters ya want. If there aren't male only clubs, then there should be. You guys gotta start fighting for yourselves.... no one else is going to do it for ya.


Edit: by the way... you aren't gonna get the hooters without the women, so perhaps you could pick something out that doesn't include women to make your point? Ya know, get your head out of the boobs and crotches? Might help your cause, lol. You just made the woman's point...she'd like to exercise in peace.

[Sharondippity]

Originally posted by cydweeks
Eithics, you can have all the Hooters ya want. If there aren't male only clubs, then there should be. You guys gotta start fighting for yourselves.... no one else is going to do it for ya.


Edit: by the way... you aren't gonna get the hooters without the women, so perhaps you could pick something out that doesn't include women to make your point? Ya know, get your head out of the boobs and crotches? Might help your cause, lol. You just made the woman's point...she'd like to exercise in peace.

Ha ha true only cross dressers allowed, nah I don't think he meant that.


What would you suggest, ethics, that the solution be for women? How would you see a facility ensure that men don't misuse the purpose of the gym?

What can be done so that women aren't subject to the actions of overbearing men?

I cannot imagine that men would have the same problem, so, there is an existing disparity.

The previous issues regarding race didn't involve sexual harrassment, so that is an unfair comparison.

What about a woman's right to not be sexually harassed? How to deal with that effectively in the public?

[Violet1966]

We have Curves here and we have other fitness centers that are unisex. I have no problem with gender specific health clubs. If gender specific health clubs was all there was offered, I would have a problem with it though. Seeing as they are one choice of many, it's all good. I kinda look at it from a medical view. Health clubs are even covered under medical insurances these days.

What legitimate reason should a male have for wanting to work out in a health club where women want to wear hardly any clothing and not feel like they are being watched by men? I don't look at this the way some people do...it seems medical to me. I would have no problem with an all male health club either.

[ethics]

Race? Hooters is hardly an issue of race, Sharon. And I find it quite hypocritic when a woman states, albeit indirectly, that women are such creatures of weakness that they can not work out in the presence of (*puts his hand on his forehead and faints*) males.

This just supports the view that opponents of this bill fear, that women are not equal.

[Coriolis]

Cyd and Sharon make a pretty valid points. The question to ask is: Do men <i>really</i> want a men's only athetic club? I somehow doubt it, but if they really did, and there was a compelling reason for it -- like not wanting to be leered at and harassed by gawking women -- then by all means, they should be allowed. This is really no more discriminating than not allowing men into womens locker rooms. Besides, there are plenty of co-ed athletic clubs to choose from, so there's no disadvantage to men in this case. I don't see the problem.

[Stiofán]

Originally posted by ethics
The big deal is because there are double standards, Cyd. I'd be all for a woman's only club if there were such thing as a place where men can hang out? Like Hooters perhaps?
This is <b>exactly</b> my point about the NOW bunch. They brought this on with the insistance of doing away with men only clubs. Their tenuous argument that woman need access so they can gain the business cultivating benefits as men do, was and still is hogwash. Yet they pushed it for so long, that society changed and made the men only clubs feel like lepers. Now the "hen's" come home to roost, so to speak, and laws have to be passed to save them.

[ethics]

I don't think men are crazy enough to want the same thing in health clubs. Besides, a club with overweight women? Please, not for me. That's not the point here, however.

There are plenty of clubs social, or otherwise, that have been banned or opened up because of sexism. Appears it's ok if tables are reversed.

Let me know, folks, when you really want equality for women.

[Stiofán]

Originally posted by Coriolis
Cyd and Sharon make a pretty valid points. The question to ask is: Do men <i>really</i> and there was a compelling reason for it -- like not wanting to be leered at and harassed by gawking women -- then by all means, they should be allowed.

This is the problem. Whose interpretation of a compelling reason should society be forced to take. Mine? Yours? What if they differ? How about the reason that men just like to hang out with other men and talk about men things? A respite from the women in their lives, if you will. Good enough for you? Well, it hasn't been good enough for many of the feminists, hence the situation we are in now. Yet women's being uncomfortable with their body image around men is a valid reason (one I understand and agree with, personally).

[Sharondippity]

Originally posted by ethics
Race? Hooters is hardly an issue of race, Sharon. And I find it quite hypocritic when a woman states, albeit indirectly, that women are such creatures of weakness that they can not work out in the presence of (*puts his hand on his forehead and faints*) males.

This just supports the view that opponents of this bill fear, that women are not equal.

Tsk tsk,

nothing of the sort was stated. The inference is all yours.

Luckily there are laws against sexual harassment , at least in the workplace, since attitudes like yours on the matter still exist.

Sexual harrassment is no laughing matter (*puts hand on ethics forehead so he can faint again*)

To belittle the problem with sexual harassment is a huge step backwards.

And whether we want equal rights or not is not hinged on this one incident as you would state.

Is it necessary to oversimplify or is it just to generate a reaction?

[RRedline]

Originally posted by cydweeks
OH NO!!! NO, not a MEN'S golf course!!!
for god's sakes. What is the big deal? We're talking about allowing a business to have the choice to be co-ed or not. I belonged to a women's only club for a couple of years. It was great. No men bothering you, bothering your friend. It was a relaxed atmosphere that women just went and sweat it out.
What is the big deal?? The big deal is the double standard. Why is it okay for women to have a "women only" health club, but it is not okay for men to have a "men only" gold course? We need to pick a side on this issue and apply it equally to both genders, all races, etc.

Would it be okay to open a "whites only" health club? I know it sounds strange, but many white people are uncomfortable with blacks working out around them.

It sounds to me like women organizations cry foul when men exclude women from anything, but then they turn around and exclude men? Bleh!

[RRedline]

Originally posted by Sharondippity
What about a woman's right to not be sexually harassed? How to deal with that effectively in the public? Instead of having separate gyms for women, I would suggest filing charges against men who harass women. And TRUST ME, if a guy harassed a woman at the gym I frequent, he would get his ass kicked. Most men will look out for women and protect them from harassment.

I very seriously hope that men join the WPGA tour and kick the shit out of the women golfers. Maybe then they will see how silly this gender nonsense really is. Or better yet, merge the two together and have only one tour for all golfers. I guarantee they will reverse their position.

[wapu]

If there really is no problem with this, then a club that does not allow gay men would be OK. If the problem is getting hit on or leered at, then do they prohibit lesbians in?

I am all for these clubs, but I see Ethics' point about the double standard we have regarding many things in our society. It goes in stages. The first is the minority woman, she can do no wrong, then comes the white woman who can do no wrong except to minority women, then comes the minority male, who is still a male pig, but is also a minority and can get away anything that does not offend woman. Finally we have the white male. The Devil. The scurge of the planet. Anything and everything that is wrong with society is somehow our fault. We are such vile creatures that woman can get laws passed to keep us out of their gym, but it is morally wrong and offensive to women if we might not want them intruding on our golf game? What a crock.

I hope this sets some sort of precident that will lead to the business person being allowed to run their business like they want to. You want to keep men out? Fine, just don't get mad at me for keeping woman, blacks, or gays out of mine.

[Robert Harris]

I have a solution.

1) Ban ALL athletic clubs. They allow people to waste time.

2) Close this thread, or change its name to, "Making a mountain out of a molehill."

:) :)

[RRedline]

OMG Wapu, you reminded me of a hilarious scene in <i>Will & Grace</i> where Will and Grace were trying to outdo each other with friends. You know, the woman card trumps the man card, the minority card trumps the gay card, the minority woman card trumps the minority man card, the minority lesbian card trumps the minority gay man card, etc. It was so funny AND so true. ;)

[tke711]

Ya....another wonderful thing my :friggin: Governor has done.... [/sarcasm].

Actually, while I do see, and agree, that there is a double standard being applied, I don't have a problem with a woman's only club. It's just not enough of an issue to get me worked up.

However, what I do have a problem with is our :friggin: crappy Governor!!! But alas, that is for an entirely different thread about why he is the scum of the earth :friggin:head.

[cdw]

You go Robert! I'm with you... what is the big deal? You don't even want to go there Ethics, after all, you don't want to look at FAT WOMEN. rofl so, what the heck do you care?
And there are golf courses that only allow men. The problem USED to be that there were ONLY white men golf courses. The problem USED to be that there were only white men voting.
The swing had to go way to the other side in order to get some sort of equality.
I'm not for not allowing you men to hang out in a club by yourselves. I'm not against you having your own golf course.
Have 'em. Now, start fighting for YOUR rights. Sucks, doesn't it?

[Stiofán]

The difference Cyd is that this is a public business and they are going to be allowed to legally discriminate.

I feel everyone should have the right to associate as they see fit (I also think business owners should be allowed to set their own smoking policies in their bars and resturaunts, even though I don't smoke, it's the damn principle that matters) but when women can legally discriminate in a public business and men can't, it smacks of hypocracy to the max.

And for Robert and those who could care less, wait until <i>your</i> liberties are involved and see who cares. Your big issue may be a small issue to others as well.

[Robert Harris]

One thing has been learned from this thread. We now know who in the forum is outraged at not being able to watch almost naked fat women sweat. :)

[IamZed]

The only health club I ever belonged to alternated between men and women from day to day. Worked for me, I was there to work out only.

[Sir Joseph]

Thanks for reminding me. I just got back from signing up with a gym that alternates between men's time and women's time.

[Stiofán]

Originally posted by Robert Harris
One thing has been learned from this thread. We now know who in the forum is outraged at not being able to watch almost naked fat women sweat. :)

We take our pleasures where we can get them.

[Misu]

Originally posted by ethics
Race? Hooters is hardly an issue of race, Sharon. And I find it quite hypocritic when a woman states, albeit indirectly, that women are such creatures of weakness that they can not work out in the presence of (*puts his hand on his forehead and faints*) males.

This just supports the view that opponents of this bill fear, that women are not equal.

That's not what was being said, ethics. It wasn't said that women are weak and cannot work out in the presence of males - what was said was that women have the right to not be sexually harrassed.

I agree that legalising the banning of men in particular fitness clubs (like Curves) is going too far, but on the other hand, there are women who for one reason or another just do not want to work out in a co-ed facility, so they enroll themselves in a place that touts itself as being all-female (and this part I am now inferring from what I read), but suddenly it's not all-female because men began enrolling.

For me, this is a difficult situation. On the one hand, discrimination in any form is wrong, and this is discrimination based on sex. On the other hand, a woman has the right to not be harrassed, whether that harrassment come in the form of sexual harrassment or in the form of ridicule because she happens to weight 350 pounds and is enrolled in a gym to try to work on her health problems.

[Misu]

Originally posted by RRedline
The big deal is the double standard. Why is it okay for women to have a "women only" health club, but it is not okay for men to have a "men only" gold course? We need to pick a side on this issue and apply it equally to both genders, all races, etc.

Would it be okay to open a "whites only" health club? I know it sounds strange, but many white people are uncomfortable with blacks working out around them.

It sounds to me like women organizations cry foul when men exclude women from anything, but then they turn around and exclude men? Bleh!

Well personally, this is the difference that I see, regarding an all-male golf course and a women's fitness club:

In golf clubs, business transactions take place. In fact, wherever there are men, business takes place. And it locks out the women who want to participate in those business dealings.

In women's fitness clubs, women created them because they were tired of the harrassment (either sexual or because they are fat and wearing spandex) received by men. So instead of having harrassment laws enforced, they went and started their own gyms.

I don't agree, though, that it should have been legalized. I think that was going too far.

[Techie2000]

What prevents women from making business transactions at their health clubs?

[Stiofán]

Remember we are talking public businesses here. Augusta National is a private club owned by the members and is not open to the public so that case does not apply.

Again, I would prefer that the owner make their own rules and not the government, but once you start legislating, it must be the same for all. The sexual harrasement issue is separate and can be addressed by passing gender neutral legislation against harrassment in health clubs. just having men look at your fat, disgusting lard ass in leotards is not harrassment, unless you are the looker as opposed to the lookee. Hey, maybe we can sue!

[Robert Harris]

Originally posted by Techie2000
What prevents women from making business transactions at their health clubs?

Basically Men, control the businesses.

[ShinyTop]

Damn, we let them in on the sex thing, now they want everything we do. Sheeesh!

[Robert Harris]

Originally posted by InsAgt
We take our pleasures where we can get them.

Hope you enjoy this one, then. Now you won't have to crash the women's club, and can leave Misu and her friends in peace. :)

[ethics]

Originally posted by cydweeks
You don't even want to go there Ethics, after all, you don't want to look at FAT WOMEN. rofl so, what the heck do you care?

Just as long as we apply the same standards, as Rred, Wapu, and others have mentioned, I wouldn't even blink when seeing this news report.

[ethics]

Originally posted by Misu


For me, this is a difficult situation. On the one hand, discrimination in any form is wrong, and this is discrimination based on sex. On the other hand, a woman has the right to not be harrassed, whether that harrassment come in the form of sexual harrassment or in the form of ridicule because she happens to weight 350 pounds and is enrolled in a gym to try to work on her health problems.

The above is offensive to males, but hey, it's males so it's ok. A woman has a right not to be sexually harassed so that's the reason we need to segregate the sexes? Hey, I might come on to someone on the forum in here, should we split the forum in male/female only forums?

All of the women here, with the exception of Cyd, are making it sound as if all males do is sexually harass women at gyms. If a club can not protect EVERYone, regardless of gender, race, class, or religion, than that club should not be operating in the first place. To apply this form of discrimination on entire male gender just because one ass out of a thousand MIGHT come on to someone at the gym is draconian and smells, no it reeks, of hypocrisy.

I loved how you got all angry over Hooters restaraunt in another thread and <a href="http://www.globalaffairs.org/forum/showthread.php?postid=28764#post28764">said</a>, Hooters says it's a restaurant. People supposedly go for the chicken wings and beer and big screen tv's. As a RESTAURANT, it cannot discriminate who it hires as it's wait staff. Now if Hooter's wants to redefine itself and call itself something other than restaurant, ok then. Up to them.

Well, Curves says it's a health club, there are work out machines, treadmills, and all things pandering to working out. Very small difference in the two cases but very opposite reaction.

[limeygit]

Do these clubs serve alcohol?
If not, I really don't care, they can always have men only hours at night, like they do with adult swim.
Wait, should I get worked up about adult swim?

[Neo]

This topic makes me mad. Not because of the topic or peoples' views on the issue but because I don't have anywhere near the time to spend on it to properly address it from my perspective which is in part the freedom of association as set forth by the first amendment.

The short incomplete response is a woman’s' only private club is fine. So is a men’s' only private club and so are private organizations like the NAACP.

What is the issue is not that women should not be permitted to “discriminate” by having a women’s' only club but that the freedom or right to have such a private club is selectively applied.

Somewhere in this thread someone mentioned something about the peoples' motives having some bearing on whether it was OK to have a women’s' only private health club. I say reasons have nothing to do with it. Rights don't work that way. At least they are not supposed to anyway.

We all have a first amendment freedom of speech if we live in the United States. That right is not abrogated or controlled by why we want the freedom to say something.

Well, that is all the time I have.

It is frustrating not to be to adequately or in a quality way discuss and or post something.

[Biker]

Originally posted by Matrix
What is the issue is not that women should not be permitted to “discriminate” by having a women’s' only club but that the freedom or right to have such a private club is selectively applied.


Bingo.. Because of today's atmosphere and the fear of offending one group over another, the courts are all to eager to turn a blind eye to this issue when it suits the current political climate.

[RRedline]

Matrix, how would you feel about a "whites only" health club? Or how about a "no red headed people" health club? Couldn't those also be argued as freedom of association?

I really wouldn't care much about this particular issue if it weren't for all the women's groups trying to break up the men's clubs.

[Biker]

That's just it... What's good for the goose is good for the gander. If you start saying one group can have their own club, you can't very well say another can't have theirs.

[Copzilla]

I want to go on record as saying in all the years I went to a public gym and worked out, I saw lots of fat people in there. I saw tons of fat people working out hard and improving themselves, and one thing I NEVER EVER SAW was a fat person being ridiculed for being fat while they were in the gym. That would get you thrown out of the gym fast as hell. On the contrary, I saw lots of fat people being encouraged in their workouts and complimented on their progress by people who admittedly were in much better shape.

If a fat lady doesn't want to go to a public gym, it is not likely because of ridicule, but most probably because of self-consciousness. That's FINE too, but don't demonize men members of public gyms for something that if it ever does happen, is VERY isolated at best. I'll bet anything that it's no more prevalent than it would be at a women's-only gym, because women can be just as nasty as men, and sometimes more so.

[Frodo Lives]

It is double standerds. Should there be Womens only health clubs? Sure, but some women need to stop the damn bitching everytime there is a mens only club.

[cdw]

I don't see why businesses just can't be a business. Why does everything have to be so "fair"? Which, I don't think it is. I don't know where I was when that Hooters thread was going on, but wtf? The whole business concept would be destroyed if they were "forced" to hire men. (what happened with that anyway?)

Anyway,... I remember some thread where someone in here said to me something to the effect, get over it...there are laws, use them. So, fellas, stand up and be counted. Fight for your rights.
You're losing them little by little as it is. Better start fighting the trend. In the meantime, we get to have our cake and eat it too! wheeeheeehee! rofl

[ethics]

Cyd, totally agreed there, but it's an uphill battle. Can you imagine the ridicule and the op-eds and the media circus around men wanting something inclusive?

But, you are right, it didn't stop women from fighting for their rights, it shouldn't stop men either.

[Steve]

I'm waiting for the first Jew or African American to sue to join the KKK on the grounds that it's an exclusionary club.

Why should anyone care if members of a self-identified group desire to form an exclusive club? Let whosoever desires establish whatever clubs they wish.

Their right to do so ends, however, when they demand that a pre-existing club amend its membership rules.

And before anyone goes off on slavery, Jim Crow, ERA, or other irrelevant tangents, I'm solely addressing the issue of private clubs with membership requirements.

Failure to agree with a club's rules or membership requirements is insufficient reason to infringe upon the member's rights.

[Coriolis]

Originally posted by stevent
snip...

Why should anyone care if members of a self-identified group desire to form an exclusive club? Let whosoever desires establish whatever clubs they wish.

Their right to do so ends, however, when they demand that a pre-existing club amend its membership rules.

...snip
Exactly. And because that's not the case here (the 2nd point) I don't have a problem with a women's only health club.

[Frodo Lives]

On second thought. Maybe women do need women's only health clubs. I mean seriously, they ARE the weaker sex. They are so easily intimidated by men. So they need special treatment.

[sarcasm off]

[cdw]

rofl I think it's funny that some of the women are bringing up comments that men make at a health club as if it's only men that make them. There are PLENTY of women there oggleing (sp?) over the muscles and physics of the men that are exercising. And, making comments about the fat guys too. Come on, lets get real here. It works both ways and you know it.

[Frodo Lives]

Originally posted by cydweeks
rofl I think it's funny that some of the women are bringing up comments that men make at a health club as if it's only men that make them. There are PLENTY of women there oggleing (sp?) over the muscles and physics of the men that are exercising. And, making comments about the fat guys too. Come on, lets get real here. It works both ways and you know it.


:thumbsup:


Some women seem to think that us men don't hang out with women on a friendship bases. All I can say is that 'Women are not different then Men'. They can be/are just as dirty and foul as men. It's the "Daddy's Little Princess" mentality that gets them in trouble.

[cdw]

I don't want to be fined for being in here, but could someone please tell me what this means? mysogonists
I can't find it in the dictionary.

[Steve]

mi·sog·y·nist ( P ) Pronunciation Key (m-sj-nst)
n.
One who hates women.

adj.
Of or characterized by a hatred of women.

Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

[cdw]

Ah, thank you kind sir. A misspelling. I couldn't figure out the insult, lol. You little woman hater you. rofl

[Fiona]

Originally posted by Frodo Lives
It is double standerds. Should there be Womens only health clubs? Sure, but some women need to stop the damn bitching everytime there is a mens only club. there ya go makin sense again

[Misu]

Originally posted by Techie2000
What prevents women from making business transactions at their health clubs?

The fact that most business leaders are male.

[Steve]

...and so....the logical result of a female-exclusive health club will be....fewer business contact opportunities.....until things change.

[cdw]

Women in business make business contacts and deals where ever they are, just as men do. I'm confused, what has this got to do with anything?

[Misu]

deleted it because I don't want to be part of this thread anymore.

Even when I state, what I think is a neutral opinion about this topic, an opinion I had about ANOTHER topic gets brought up.

Whatever.

[Fiona]

Originally posted by ethics

All of the women here, with the exception of Cyd, are making it sound as if all males do is sexually harass women at gyms. ahem ...

[cdw]

rofl you don't count

[Misu]

Originally posted by stevent
...and so....the logical result of a female-exclusive health club will be....fewer business contact opportunities.....until things change.

Business takes place at golf courses. My dad used to have to meet up with his bosses at the golf course in order to attend "a meeting".

I don't know what health clubs and business have to do with the fact that big business deals get done at golf courses.

[wapu]

Originally posted by Misu
Business takes place at golf courses. My dad used to have to meet up with his bosses at the golf course in order to attend "a meeting".

I don't know what health clubs and business have to do with the fact that big business deals get done at golf courses.

And the people that make those deals know this too. If they choose to have their meeting at a Golf Course that does not include women, what do you think the chances of them making the deal with a woman is anyways? If they choose to exclude woman from their business dealings, they will exclude them whether it is on the golf course or in the Conference room.

[Frodo Lives]

Mostly at private golf courses. We have a public course about a mile from my house and the only business deals that take place there are who is going to run to the store for another case of beer and who is paying for it. :)

[Misu]

Originally posted by wapu
And the people that make those deals know this too. If they choose to have their meeting at a Golf Course that does not include women, what do you think the chances of them making the deal with a woman is anyways? If they choose to exclude woman from their business dealings, they will exclude them whether it is on the golf course or in the Conference room.

And that is exactly the point I'm making.

In the work environment (like the office or conference), they can't flat out discriminate because of the law. But at the club, women can't attend because it's against club rules to let them in - their hands are tied.

You're right, though - a company that allows business meetings to take place where some of their employees can't access because of club rules is effectively excluding them.

[Biker]

You have a group of women who are screaming bloody murder because they can't get into Augusta, and then another group states they need a women's only health facility. Forget the excuses as to why they "think" they need a private health facility. In their mind, it's not the same thing. Phooey. It's a double standard and it's wrong.

[RRedline]

Since I am one of those "all the men in the thread," I feel like I need to respond.

First of all, I think women should be allowed to have their exclusive club. I really, really do. However, I firmly believe in equality, and I just don't see it with what's going on in the news. As Biker pointed out, one group of women is breaking up men's clubs, while another group of women want to have exclusive clubs. It most certainly IS a double standard. Women are allowed to have exclusive clubs, and men are not? Phooey.

And I think the 'problem' women have at clubs are greatly exaggerated. Most men do not behave like eighth graders at health clubs. All I ever see men doing is encouraging others - both men and women - to work hard and achieve their goals. I see just as many overweight men as I do women at the club I frequent, and I have never heard a negative remark made about them. On the contrary, I hear things like, "Wow, she is a hard worker," or "I hope he sticks with it." I know that there are probably a lot of bad men who may say discouraging things or hit on women or do something else to make them feel uncomfortable, but it is the responsibility of the owners of these gyms to take actions against trouble-makers.

Don't women get hit on at restaurants? Are there any women-only restaurants? I'm sorry, but I just don't get it. If women want to have their own clubs, fine. I think it's silly, but I would not complain if women stopped breaking up the men's groups.

And really, why would you think that you are going to get banned for speaking your mind? That's just silly. Check this out: Fuck you, ethics! Am I banned? ;)

[Copzilla]

What's bullshit is women thinking guys act like that in health clubs. I've been a member of a health club for a long time, and all I've ever seen out of the members are supportiveness, help and understanding. Those people who look great and are strong are always willing to help and advise someone who is just getting started and doesn't look so good.

And women should be able to have their own gyms if they're so inclined, just like men should be able to have their own golf clubs if they're so inclined.

[Fiona]

Copz you may have been right that it is some type of self consciousness albeit bred by society... but I thin fair is fair and some exclusions from clubs are understandable. I'm not one of those double standard types... I know many women who ogle men but somehow it IS different. Anyway... I Do feel uncomfortable working out around men... but I do it anyway. and I dont go to curves (ick) but I can see both sides of this.

[cdw]

Said by Fiona:I know many women who ogle men but somehow it IS different.

And how is it different? It's ok for women to behave that way but it's not ok for a guy? What the heck is that?

[Techie2000]

The problem with this thread is that there are many confused people. Some people say there should be no seperation at all. Everyone completely equal. Others say that yes women can have their own health clubs too, as long as the men can, and whatever variants, etc. what have you. However rather than debating the issue intelligently and telling people what side your attacking, people are just throwing insults in the general direction of the other side.

[melpomene]

Originally posted by Copzilla

And women should be able to have their own gyms if they're so inclined, just like men should be able to have their own golf clubs if they're so inclined.

bleeeeeeeppppppppppp

wrong

there is no comparison, between women wanting to do pelvic floor exercises in private and men banging a stick around................no maybe there is ..............the stick

you blokes, yep, you lot on this thread, have completely missed the point

am i banned yet?

[cdw]

I guess I've missed the point too...just what is your point? That you aren't feeling well today?

[Frodo Lives]

There are not any Men's Only Health Clubs in the states that I can find. It is a real shame too, I don't want to be ogled at by all those friggin horny women. I feel uncomfortable when I see them whispering because I know they are talking about me. How do I know? Because all women are conniving and sneaky.

:rolleyes:


Here (http://www.mensnettv.com/) is a interesting sight I found. All men here should take a look.


Mel,
If you are unhappy with this sight, you have the right to leave. Nobody is going to force you to leave.

If you are unhappy with this thread, then just don't read it.

[melpomene]

i am severly pissed off, that my posts just get deleted all the time. It has been happening for ages. If i post a new thread, it gets moved or merged with another.

i am well, thank you, cyd. and no it is not that time of the month. very condescending of you cyd, actually, to assume i am unwell.

no thank you frodo, i am more than happy to partake in this thread. but lets talk about me being unwell, or menopausal, or maybe not agreeing with everyone on this thread re: this issue of womans only clubs. very condescending. and very human too.

and this is my point.......................

when women stand up for rights, or equality, or to be heard, or voice a loud, noisy, aggressive opinion....................tsk tsk..............she must be either sick, or hormonal, or menopausal or damn it why isnt she just agreeing with the establishment and doing what she is told - ie you frodo lives

men have by definition for centuries placed themselves in very influential area of power. they have done this to gain control of the masses. many male only clubs ie the masons etc have formed secret societies of power networks. with a closed door policy.

women start getting noisy about a womens only health club, and lets face it........................its scary. its scares men.

its the mentality of "gotta keep on top of 'em" ........."gotta stay one step ahead of 'em" i think this latest excuse of men's of double standards, is shit. this was grabbed about 10 years ago, and men have full throttled it to the max.

example: the grimacing and distorted smiles of the men in the texas golf tournament at the moment with the inclusion of that swedish player. prime example.

[Coriolis]

Originally posted by melpomene
bleeeeeeeppppppppppp

wrong

there is no comparison, between women wanting to do pelvic floor exercises in private and men banging a stick around................no maybe there is ..............the stick

you blokes, yep, you lot on this thread, have completely missed the point

am i banned yet?
Sigh. Wasn't going to say anything when I saw the UIF post, but I now feel compelled to request that you not lump everyone here into two opposing groups -- the men vs the women.

Mel, take a look around in this thread. There's a wide range of opinions, and different perspectives, here. Some in line, perhaps, with yours (and from a man no less)! You'll also find a wide variety of opinion, and perspective, coming from the women, not in line with yours.

Also, no one gets banned here for stating their opinions.

[cdw]

In no way did I assume or imply that you were menopausal.
I asked if you weren't feeling well because of the posts that are not usual to you. I've also stated at times that I am cranky and that Misu is cranky. I'm sorry that you assumed I meant something other than that. Your posts to this thread were not deleted, they were moved by the admins.

I'm sorry, but I disagree with you on this particular issue. This isn't a woman's issue, it's a man's issue. Men also have the "right" to have clubs if women are allowed to have clubs. It seems to me that it is you and some other women that would like to have some rights that men are not allowed to have, and that, perhaps is because it frightens you. The men in here that care about it, are asking why aren't they allowed the same rights? I agree. And they should fight for them. I don't care if they have a club. IMO, women shouldn't either....they should start taking care of themselves if they want to be equal. Help each other. You can't have it both ways. You can't protect your own rights but trample on the rights of others. It would be better if women weren't making statements like.... it's different if women make remarks about men somehow vs men making remarks about women, IMO.

[Techie2000]

women start getting noisy about a womens only health club, and lets face it........................its scary. its scares men.Ummm...Not reallly...I never said I was against a women's only health club. <FONT SIZE="4">Stop Generalizing About Men. We are individuals too ya know!!!</FONT>

[melpomene]

Originally posted by cydweeks


I'm sorry, but I disagree with you on this particular issue.?

and this is all you had to say. Isnt it? But you inferred, that i was not quite myself because i did this, you are all wrong, you are all missing the point

doesnt missing the point mean i do not agree.

and Coriolis, i really think you need to read the whole thread again, to see the underlying and written opinions of the men. have another read?

it is afterall only a womens health club..............how about if we were talking about "The Secret Society of Controlling Men club" Sacre Bleur!

[Techie2000]

*Techie2000 begins beating his head against the wall*

[melpomene]

Originally posted by Techie2000
Ummm...Not reallly...I never said I was against a women's only health club. <FONT SIZE="4">Stop Generalizing About Men. We are individuals too ya know!!!</FONT>

your post will be deleted if you talk like that, no maybe not, because you are a male. and RRedline said "Fuck you, ethics" and that post is still there

[melpomene]

Originally posted by Techie2000
*Techie2000 begins beating his head against the wall*

GA police GA police................pull over driver, you are not sticking to the topic

[BigDeputyDog]

There is a huge difference between equal and special. To me, equal would be everyone, regardless of gender, race, creed, color, sexual preference, or any other of the lengthy list of "discriminatees" (Yes, I just made up that word... ;) ) having an equal opportunity to pursue life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Discriminatees scream and holler when they are not included, regardless of the reason. However, these same Discriminatees have no qualms about excluding anyone else if it is something that they want only for themselves. Now we have the Discriminatees becoming the Discrimanators!

Why is it championed and applauded when females want to break down the doors of "Men's Only" private golf clubs, but when men speak out against "Women's Only" activities, the men are told they are wrong? I thought this was all about EQUALITY!

Oh wait... I get it now... it's about equality and wanting special treatment too... :rolleyes:

BDD...

[Frodo Lives]

BDD, it's called "having your cake and eating it too". That is something men had to find out the hard way.

[cdw]

This all makes me smile.

[Coriolis]

Originally posted by melpomene
and Coriolis, i really think you need to read the whole thread again, to see the underlying and written opinions of the men. have another read?
Mel, I've read all the posts in this thread. I understand the underlying and written opinions of the men who have posted here. I am, afterall, a man. We've gone through this issue many, many times here. Same issue, different topic, many, many times. But you seemed to have missed that not all men agree with the majority of men. All I am asking, and Techie has asked as well, is to not generalize that all men have their heads up their asses on this issue... only some do. ;)

[ShinyTop]

Mel, almost every person in this thread sees nothing wrong with a women only health club. The commom point being made is women should quit complaining about men's clubs if they want this. You are bringing up misbehaving men, men who are in clubs to exclude women, and ignoring the point about fairness. Then yell and call names. We are saying the same thing about all minority groups wanting equality and then demanding special treatment. This is not an anti-woman issue. It's about the fix should be fair, not unfair to a new group.

It should not be nor will I accept it being the job of government to determine the reasons behind any prejudicial treatment. They should outlaw it period or allow it in clearly defined ways. I think health clubs for just women are fine. But it is clearly hypocritical to demand this but men cannot have men only clubs. Again, the government thinks it is okay to demand all children pass a given test by a given date. That does not inspire me to allow them, or you as much as I trust you more, to read minds before determining what behavior is legal.

[ethics]

Originally posted by melpomene
your post will be deleted if you talk like that, no maybe not, because you are a male. and RRedline said "Fuck you, ethics" and that post is still there

So is yours. None of your posts were deleted but moved to UiF. Of course, you already knew that.

If you have issues with this and can't control your anger, perhaps participation in this thread is not recommended. This thread, this forum, and this site is for those that can discuss things in a mature manner. If you want to discuss issues and not the men of this forum, by all means.

women start getting noisy about a womens only health club, and lets face it........................its scary. its scares men.


I am sure it does, certain small percentage. My goal in starting this thread was not out of fear of women's only health clubs. As a matter of fact, almost all men involved in this thread--including myself-- have mentioned, one way or another, that they are all for a women's only health club, AS LONG as men are given the same rights on the state level as women.

I don't think that's asking for too much.

[Neo]

I've changed my mind. I am glad I don't have time to respond in the way I wanted to on this topic.

Iraq, politics, Bush, Ashcroft, religion, separation of church and state, and we have survived them all.

But the topic of womens' only health club and the entire forum goes to hell---and gains momentum as it does.

This whole thread should be moved to UIF not because most of the posters deserve it, (they don't), but just to hide it from the general public.

This is definitely not a poster child advertisment or reference thread for potential GA members!

[Sharondippity]

How about we all step back in time and really review some of the old time men's only clubs. Were women offered a women's only comparable club? I'm just thinking "out loud" here in print.

Women were wanting into men's clubs because they were at a disadvantage in some way? Like missing out with trying to make it in a man's field work wise? Please, honestly, someone help me with history. This stuff all happened when I was little and I didn't take note. (shame on me I know)

Are the motivations here really to deny men any advantages that women solely have?

Are men trying to start careers that are female dominated?

I think, in the past, that men had opportunities that were not matched for women.

Letting men play in women's golf, I'm neither for it nor against it.
Letting women play in men's golf, the same. My opinions on Vijay were on his lack of tolerance, since we all know he was not the one who invited her to play.

I think golf should be driven by handicap and everyone can golf together. Is this a dumb solution?

I think health clubs should be open to both sexes, but have a private room /floor for women to do their pelvic exercises. I had a gym where there was a small side section for just that. The rest was coed.

Saying that it's bullshit that men don't hit on women iin health clubs is hilarious. Catching someone stare at you while you are in a compromised position takes all the fun and motivation out of that particular part of your workout. The guy does not have to actually walk over and chat you up. I've walked into a busy free weights room and they all clam up and stare. I'm no double DD barbie doll neither. I'm makeup-less and in my most ragedy comfy workout clothes. I could have curlers in my hair and a diaper full of poo and they'd still react the same.

Anyway, the ruling that started this thread, well it doesn't mean that women don't have the right to demand parity. It means that someone made a ruling that would need a little more work to make things right. Several solutions come to mind. I'd like to hear what your suggestions would be to make things perfectly fair to you in your world. What would it be?

Another one came to me while typing this, for those ladies who are really uncomfortable with their girth, some aroebic classes could be held just for them for plus size ladies or something palatable.

[Biker]

Sharon, what it boils down to is the perceived double standard. On one hand, you have a group of women clamoring for "men only" venues to be opened up to women. Fine. No problem. But then to have another group turn around and say no men, this is just for women? Forget past history, forget the so called reasons.. Can't have both ways. Either it's all open, or the concept of gender specific clubs stands.

[Sharondippity]

So how do you feel about private rooms or classes?

You did not address the situations I carefully described, and that is the crux of the frustration here.

You are not validatiing what we women are saying is necessary. Copzilla eloquently discribed it as bullshit.

How would you like it if your daughter, when she becomes old enough, is doing her exercises and some guys are slipping glances at her when she's doing squats?

[Sharondippity]

What I'm seeing here, is a "rules is rules" crossed arms attitude, and a lack of any sympathy for what women do in fact experience.

That is why you are seeing blood boil. Failing to acknowledge the issues that drive women to WANT to be seperate from men is the main problem I'm seeing in the two sides of this thread.

[Biker]

I don't have a problem with the concept of a gender only facility. What I object to is the apparent double standard that's being applied.

[Sharondippity]

I've seen you post that

several times.

What do you think about the problem that drives women to want to be seperate from men?

[ShinyTop]

Same here. Few are questioning the deirablility of having separate clubs. Maybe men don't want women playing gold because they don't want to be embarassed at being beat by women. I strongly feel the answer would be to live with it. Or our sensibilities worth less than women's? What is it about men watching women squat that is different about women watching men squat? What is different now that was in place when women demanded access to mens gyms? I think we have a right to the answer.

[Misu]

I disagree about forgetting the past, Biker. History shows us the reasons for barring women from activities like education, most careers, not being able to own property, etc, were basically to control women. So men would maintain their hold on power. The reasons that occurred, and still occur today, is to maintain power.

The reasons for a women's only health club are not related to power.

Now if reasons don't mean anything to some of you, then this whole discussion is completely pointless because if we can't agree on the validity of reasons, and why some of them are valid while some of them are outrageous, then why bother?

And I use the term valid as in beneficial while at the same time, not hurting anyone, either directly or indirectly. And I honestly do not understand how a female-only fitness club hurts anyone, given the fact there are alternatives available for men and women who do not want to attend a female-only fitness club that are just as good - if not better than - a facility like Curves. I understand why the LAW that was placed in effect hurts people, because it sets a precedent, and I do not agree with the law.

[ethics]

Originally posted by Sharondippity

Saying that it's bullshit that men don't hit on women iin health clubs is hilarious.

Saying that all men, as Melopene has clamored over and over again, is equally silly. Does it happen? I am sure of it. Is the solution segregation?

No one is denying there has been inequality to women, hell, some of it still exists in pay wages and other things. My wife happens to be a woman. My 12 year old is also a teen female. I have another daughter on the way. I love them all and want them to have as much opportunities as possible. However, let's not go over board and apply one set of rules to women and another to men.

I'd like to hear what your suggestions would be to make things perfectly fair to you in your world. What would it be?

We can start at having the same, men only, gyms. I've worked out at World's Gym, and while 95% of it were guys heavy in to lifting, there were always a few women who wanted to catch the eye of the guys. Could we bar them legally? Hell no.

[Sharondippity]

Well Misu, I don't think that law is the answer either.

But what I'd like to see, is acknowledgement of the need for privacy for some folks, either men or women, somehow I do believe that women are ogled more than men, hence the need for a place ogle-free.

Shiny,
when men complain about women harassing men at the gym then that should be seriously addressed.

I've never heard of it though.

[Misu]

Originally posted by ShinyTop
What is different now that was in place when women demanded access to mens gyms? I think we have a right to the answer.

I think the difference is that when women first demanded access to mens gyms, there either were no gyms available for women, or what was available was not of the same quality as was available for men.

That is not the case today.

And what Sharon said about our persepctives not being acknowledged are dead-on. It's no wonder some people are getting frustrated and angery when your persepctive on something is ridiculed and minimized as "pish posh" - as if it doesn't exist. The fact you don't notice it, or just don't see it where you are, does not mean it doesn't exist and it doesn't happen frequently.

And I don't think anyone is denying that women do the same thing (although in all honesty, my opinion is that men seem to be much more aggresive than women, but that has been my personal experiences - I'm sure there are women out there who'd make a sailor blush).

[Techie2000]

okay here's how I see it.

1. Biker wants to address the problem with a blanket solution that men and women have in effect equal rights. Men can have their shampooters and women can have their hair salon. There can be a guys gym and a girls gym. But he has no problem if there is a unisex gym that both sexes are treated equally at and just make sure everyone treats each other with respect. Am I correct?

2. Sharon wants to look at each situation individually and is trying to address specific issues in different situations. Howeve Biker argues that what women get men should get. Sharon says that sometimes its necessary for special reasons that women are given special privilages. Am I correct?

[ethics]

Originally posted by Sharondippity

Shiny,
when men complain about women harassing men at the gym then that should be seriously addressed.

I've never heard of it though.

Most women don't. It's the same thing as abusive wives. Ever hear of those?

What would happen to a guy, at the police station, or his workplace, or even his house in front of his kids, when a man goes to complain about the wife beating the crap out of him?

Most men don't bother but the problem is there.

[Biker]

That isn't the issue here. Many in this thread are trying to give a tag to what's being discussed. I could care less about the reasons given for or against a gender specific club.

No more than 2 months ago, there was this huge uproar within the "female community" about Augusta and how it was soooooooooo unfair that women couldn't play there. A facility that was "men only" was wrong and women should be allowed to play. Now we have an incident where a court has ruled that it's perfectly fine to have a "women's only" facility. That's fine, too. I don't care. But what chaps my hide is the failure to some to see that you can't have your cake and eat it, too.

Either do away with gender specific organizations, or allow them to stay. I don't want to hear one week that a "men's only" club is wrong, and then the following week hear that it's perfectly okay to have a "women's only" club.

[Frodo Lives]

I think we ALL are forgetting the spirit of this forum.

This forum is about: The freedom to openly express our diverse opinions on topics of our choosing, and discuss them in an open forum.

This forum is NOT about: Forcing others to your opinion. Every opinion is valid, no matter your stance on the subject.


Of course, you could just tell me to shut up. ;)

[Techie2000]

You know what. Now that I think about it. I wonder. Has a girl ever tried to join the boy scouts? Has a boy ever tried to join the girl scouts?

[Misu]

Originally posted by ethics
Most women don't. It's the same thing as abusive wives. Ever hear of those?

What would happen to a guy, at the police station, or his workplace, or even his house in front of his kids, when a man goes to complain about the wife beating the crap out of him?

Most men don't bother but the problem is there.

But Ethics, that is a problem with society that also needs to be addressed. The idea that men have to be strong and emotionless and insensitive, because if they show any emotion or feeling, they're considered "feminine." This is a problem that frustrates me to all hell, because Alf is a sensitive guy, a really sweet sensitive guy, full of emotions and feelings, and he often has to hide his feelings or else his friends rag on him like you wouldn't believe. And it sucks, and it's not right, and it's something society needs to snap out of.

If a guy is beaten up by anyone, they're viewed as "weak" - but if they're beaten by a female (which happens, though not as much as male on female violence, but there is a good percentage of it) it's somehow considered worse? I never understood that.

[Misu]

Originally posted by Techie2000
You know what. Now that I think about it. I wonder. Has a girl ever tried to join the boy scouts? Has a boy ever tried to join the girl scouts?

I don't think that's ever happened. All I can remember about the boy scouts was something dealing with gay men. But I don't remember exactly what.

[Sharondippity]

Originally posted by Biker

No more than 2 months ago, there was this huge uproar within the "female community" about Augusta and how it was soooooooooo unfair that women couldn't play there. A facility that was "men only" was wrong and women should be allowed to play. Now we have an incident where a court has ruled that it's perfectly fine to have a "women's only" facility. That's fine, too. I don't care. But what chaps my hide is the failure to some to see that you can't have your cake and eat it, too.

Either do away with gender specific organizations, or allow them to stay. I don't want to hear one week that a "men's only" club is wrong, and then the following week hear that it's perfectly okay to have a "women's only" club.

Luckily, things are not so black and white. While I was not privy to the uproar you are speaking of, it is not a matter of just that.

Your refusal to acknowledge any of the issues that the ruling was trying to solve will get you nowhere. Your hide will remain chapped for a long time.

Can citizens other than Native Americans live on their reservations? Is that a huge double standard you'd do away with also? I mean, really isn't there a lot of things out there that at first glance and refusing to look into it, appear to be double standard?

[LissaKay]

Originally posted by Sharondippity
What I'm seeing here, is a "rules is rules" crossed arms attitude, and a lack of any sympathy for what women do in fact experience.

That is why you are seeing blood boil. Failing to acknowledge the issues that drive women to WANT to be seperate from men is the main problem I'm seeing in the two sides of this thread.

Abso-frickin-lutely correct, Sharon!

Wanna see MY blood boil? Have a conversation with me and stare at my boobs. You just scored a big, fat ZERO on my respect scale.

(Are these your eyeballs? I found them in my cleavage ... )

I am not a set of tits, and I am not a cute ass. I am a person. A human being with hopes, dreams, successes, failures, strengths, weaknesses, intelligence, and ideas. I pity the fool that does not even consider that first.

Speaking for myself ... and I would imagine for a good number of other women ... I am sick and damned tired of being stared at, leared at, and eye-ball f***ed. Not every man does this, but enough do to really piss me off some days. Enough to make me at least wary of every man's intentions towards me until he proves himself otherwise.

Does that sound jaded and cynical? You bet. I'm justified.

Wanna make my blood REALLY boil? Blow off my feelings on this issue and crack jokes about it. Go ahead and pat me on the head and tell me, "We don't mean nothin' by it. We're just admiring the view." Just don't be too shocked at my response to that.

[Sharondippity]

Originally posted by ethics
Most women don't. It's the same thing as abusive wives. Ever hear of those?

What would happen to a guy, at the police station, or his workplace, or even his house in front of his kids, when a man goes to complain about the wife beating the crap out of him?

Most men don't bother but the problem is there.

Whether a thing occurs ever was not the point.

I'm talking statistics.

Exceptions exist to every rule .

[Techie2000]

Aye, Misu. I think that we are on the verge of a new movement. Masculinism. Something like feminism for men. Except rather than working on equal rights, it will work at trying to change how society views men, and try to make it more acceptable for them to be sensitive...

[Biker]

Originally posted by Techie2000
You know what. Now that I think about it. I wonder. Has a girl ever tried to join the boy scouts? Has a boy ever tried to join the girl scouts?

Yes.. And if I recall, the courts have forced the issue and allowed it.

I used to be a Girl Scout Leader. My kids loved it, but the looks I got from the other parents AND leaders was one of suspicion and dislike. I even had to go up to the local Council offices and demand that they put my application through.

[Sharondippity]

Originally posted by DemiGoddess

Wanna make my blood REALLY boil? Blow off my feelings on this issue and crack jokes about it.

Oh do you mean, remarks like:
Originally posted by ethics

And I find it quite hypocritic when a woman states, albeit indirectly, that women are such creatures of weakness that they can not work out in the presence of (*puts his hand on his forehead and faints*) males.

This just supports the view that opponents of this bill fear, that women are not equal.

[LissaKay]

Yup .... exactly.

[Biker]

Originally posted by Sharondippity
Your refusal to acknowledge any of the issues that the ruling was trying to solve will get you nowhere. Your hide will remain chapped for a long time.


All the ruling solves is that it's perfectly fine for women to complain about men only facilities, and it's perfectly fine for them to have their own facilities where men are excluded.

Yes, it is a black and white issue. Like I said, I don't have a problem with gender specific organizations or facilities. The problem lies in a group saying it's wrong for men, but it's okay for women.

[Stiofán]

Shar, it's not neccessary for woman to have their own health clubs and its certainly not neccessary for men to have their own golf or smoking or poker clubs or whatever. However it sure would be nice for some to be able to do this. As I posted before, I totally understand a woman's desire not to roll around in front of a lot of guys.

The argument against men only clubs is that busness is discussed their and women are excluded. Perhaps. But sometimes men jsut want to hang out with the guys. Look, when I'm in bed I'd much prefer to be with a woman. But when I go play poker, maybe I like to do it with the boys that I can cut loose with.

Now the above is an example. I have to confess I don't belong nor have I ever been to a man only club of any type I can recall, but maybe there are men who do enjoy that.

The problem is that when the government starts legislating these things, I must be fair to all or it shouldn't legislate. My opinion is that it shouldn't legislate these things. Women should be able to have their own health clubs and those old dried up little rich f*ckers in Georgia should have their own golf club that they paid for.

[ethics]

Originally posted by Biker
All the ruling solves is that it's perfectly fine for women to complain about men only facilities, and it's perfectly fine for them to have their own facilities where men are excluded.

Yes, it is a black and white issue. Like I said, I don't have a problem with gender specific organizations or facilities. The problem lies in a group saying it's wrong for men, but it's okay for women.

Forget it, Biker, it appears that no one wants to look at this simple issue, the issue that started this thread.

[ethics]

Originally posted by Sharondippity
Oh do you mean, remarks like:

Nice swipe there. Of course, taking things out of context always helps.

[Misu]

Originally posted by ethics
Forget it, Biker, it appears that no one wants to look at this simple issue, the issue that started this thread.

I think there's a major difference in perspectives, here.

Many of us are seeing it because of the reasons. And many more don't think that reasons should have merit in a situation like this.

I don't think anyone here doesn't see the simple issue. But we're seeing past the issue. We're seeing the WHY behind it, and for many of us, it's a valid reason and we don't see how it hurts anyone.

But the law does hurt. That law should be challenged.

[Biker]

So discrimination is fine as long as there's a good reason for it?

[Techie2000]

But we're seeing past the issue.That's the problem. Some people are trying to argue the simple issue that the topic was started about while others are trying to debate something a bit different. Since two people are debating two different things it has turned into a shouting contest with little actual debate or content of value because the people are really addressing two different issues...

[ethics]

Originally posted by Misu

I don't think anyone here doesn't see the simple issue. But we're seeing past the issue. We're seeing the WHY behind it, and for many of us, it's a valid reason and we don't see how it hurts anyone.


In my humble opinion, and something most women miss, is that it hurts the same people, namely women, that it tries to "protect."

Women will never achieve equality if they constantly attempt to live by two sets of laws. We either apply the same quick band aid rules across the board, allow women to have their clubs but also allow the men to have the same, and we live like that--which in my opinion once again-- will set us back a few decades.

Or

We deal with the ISSUES themselves, which will take longer, and be much tougher to do but will make lives much easier in the long run.

[cdw]

I'm with you Misu. And the men should fight it if they believe it's worth it. The plain and simple issue to most of the men here, from what I have read, is while they have no problem with women having their own facility, if there is to be a law regulating such things, in all fairness it should apply to men also and they too should be able to have their own facility.
While the ruling may have addressed the women's discomfort, it created another issue entirely. Which is what I meant when I said this isn't a woman's issue, it's a men's issue. So, guys...go to court.

[Biker]

Bravo, sir.. Exactly.

Err, Ethics, not Cyd.. ;)

[ShinyTop]

There are plenty of condescending attitudes on both sides of this issue. Most of the men have long admitted single sex gyms are a good thing. We are all being stubborn to prove the point that the good reasons for single sex gyms were there also when men had single sex gyms.

I posted last week about the trouble this country has resolving any issue without overcorrecting to the degree that at any one time both sides of a given issue have valid points about discrimination. My thread got zero replies. Yet in the time since there have been at least 3 issues argued loudly that firmly illustrated my point. When the women wanted in the male lockerooms nobody said that was stupid, a wrong had to be corrected no matter how wrong the solution.

When we can start examining issues of discrimination with logic and not ardor we may actually find solutions. Until that time we will continue to go back and forth on issues that should never have gotten to court. But court gives one a chance at getting equality and MORE because we have special situations. Well, ews flash, everyone, common sense is the only special situation completely ignored today.

On this particular issue the men are making their point and we have been screwed enough because of no fault of the <i> individuals here</i> that we feel totally justified. But in the end we agree with separate gyms, but not with some of the horribly twisted argments made here to justify it.

[Misu]

Originally posted by Biker
So discrimination is fine as long as there's a good reason for it?

Well that's the thing. Although it is discrimination, it isn't being done because women want to keep men down - it's being done because Curves is protecting their clients from what they perceive as harrassment from men at co-ed gyms.

Although I don't want to say it, it's exactly that. And it feels wrong. But that's exactly what it is. I concede that much. But somehow it's just different, and I lack the words to express why.

[Biker]

Like Ethics said. You either discriminate, or fix the problem. Which is preferable?

[cdw]

We deal with the ISSUES themselves, which will take longer, and be much tougher to do but will make lives much easier in the long run.

Which issues would those be?

[ShinyTop]

And I lack the trust in anybody or any government to weigh the reasons behind discrimination. Which is why laws have to be all encompassing. Can you imagine the laws if we said you are allowed to discrinate for these reasons: ?

[Techie2000]

Shiny, you are bringing some logic and sanity to a not so logical and sane thread. I agree with you 100% that the last thing a government should do is create a law endorsing discrimination...

[ShinyTop]

OT for a second here. I disagree that this thread should be hidden. The passion and spirt of the posters is what allows this forum to stand out. If anything I would allow more general insults as long as the attacks do not get personal. Bloody noses all around and some remaining anger does not mean points were not made and received.

[LissaKay]

Originally posted by Misu
- it's being done because Curves is protecting their clients from what they perceive as harrassment from men at co-ed gyms.


I'm thinking a better word than "harrassment" would be "privacy."

I also think that if men would be sensitive enough to at least acknowledge that some women are uncomfortable exercising in front of men, they would not have their britches in an uproar over being excluded from a place intended for women to address their weight issues. Then there would be no need for legislating the right of women to have this privacy.

[ShinyTop]

And what makes this different than when men had or wanted privacy in their gyms? At that time the reasons made no difference, the "discrimination" had to go.

[Techie2000]

Umm...Nevermind...Techie's going to sleep now...

[ethics]

Originally posted by cydweeks
Which issues would those be?

Oh, there's many. Demi mentioned the etiquette of looking at boobs instead of eyes when speaking. Not sure where that should start but I have a feeling it should be at the boys' home, by the parents. And while you will always have idiots foaming at their mouths whenever a female is in sight, you will not only get shunned by other women but might get a little unwanted attention from the males who were taught the right way to behave in front of women.

Same thing for health spas. Perhaps not totally closing off the entire facility to a gender, certain rooms or even floors may be divided in to male/female sections? Aerobic classes for men/women only, perhaps alternating nights?

God, there's so many different ways of handling it other than this primitive segregation.

[LissaKay]

I give up ... you guys REALLY do not understand at all.

Such a pity.

[Stiofán]

As I posted before, I totally understand a woman's desire not to roll around in front of a lot of guys.

I think we get that point as I've now posted three times.

Woman reporters are allowed into mens locker rooms. there were plenty of complaints about that. Perhaps they should have compromised and banned all reporters, male and female, from the locker rooms to make it fair. But they did not. It just seems like men are supposed to look at your reasons as being important (which I do) but we don't get the same consideration.

[ShinyTop]

Ya, we don't understand. Demi, I really respect your posts but that is a cop out. What makes our inability to understand different from women understanding when men have a club or a gym? I think the amount of not understanding on both sides should peclude us from that cop out.

[cdw]

Well, then you might as well include me in the men category, because I don't understand it either.

Ethics, it's really gonna be a long time before you will be able to change the natural attraction that men and women have to each others bodies. And pretty unrealistic if you ask me.
But, hey, whatever. The thread was about a law that made more problems than it solved, IMO. I'm one of the group that gets to have my cake and eat it too and I go back to one of my original posts. Wheeeheeeheee. Fight for your rights. Sux, doesn't it?

[Sharondippity]

Originally posted by Biker
So discrimination is fine as long as there's a good reason for it?

I've seen nothing of the sort suggested.

If that's all you can get out of all the material put forth then it's chapped hide time.

ethics I did not quote out of context. Call it a swipe if you like. Your originating remark was the swipe. Your other remarks carelessly aligning racism to this problem are also swipes.

It's not an all or nothing situation. You would have it that way but it's not.

There is an underlying need for some to want privacy. Acknowledge that and find a better solution.

If all you want out of all of this is for women to give up their rights just because a ruling was passed then you're not going to get it.

Yeah the ruling is not the solution.

But the need for a solution remains. Acknowledge that and this debate would lose its heat.

Your attitude is that nothing matters but the fact that the ruling is in opposition to females requesting equal rights.

[Biker]

Originally posted by Sharondippity
Your attitude is that nothing matters but the fact that the ruling is in opposition to females requesting equal rights.

Which, in of itself, is a form of discrimination. The mere fact that it's not okay to have a male only facility, but it IS okay to have a woman's facility is discrimination.

[cdw]

Now I'm really confused. The ruling is not in opposition to females requesting equal rights. It gives women a right that is not extended to men. That is the complaint. That is the inequity.

Ok, that's it, I'm outta here. Either I really am a dumb blonde or this is getting off track big time.

[Biker]

No Cyd, you nailed it right on the head. The ruling allows the creation of a facility that allows women only. My argument is what's good for the goose is good for the gander. I no longer want to hear any complaining about "men only" facilities. Can't have it both ways.

[melpomene]

Originally posted by DemiGoddess
I give up ... you guys REALLY do not understand at all.

Such a pity.

Never..................never, give up.

The males in this thread are just NOT comprehending the issue. In fact, they are answering questions with a question. Very neat little male trick.

Cydweeks, back in here girl. And if i hear you say "i am just a blonde" one more time, i am going to puke.

It is really terribly simple. A women's only, no males, health club. So that, women with issues of either weight, health, child care, diet, exercise, massage, etc can have these issues attended to, without the glaring, snearing, sly eyeballing of males.

Very very simple.

In a restaurant, yep, oogle away. In a subway, yep, ooogle away, par for the course, and us women know it. Ya know, probagating the species and all that. Ya know, those sly little thoughts that men have every 6 seconds ("yeah she is fcukable").

Simple!

Now boys wrap ya heads around that.

[Biker]

Wrap your head around this.. Regardless of the reason WHY a gender specific club is created, the mere fact that it IS created is a form of discrimination.

You want to create it? Fine. But in doing so, you yourself help create the inequities that you state have been a problem for women. Fix the core issue. Don't cover it up with a band aid.

[pcysmith]

Originally posted by DemiGoddess
I give up ... you guys REALLY do not understand at all.

Such a pity.
I have to agree. It's not a double standard. Women working out with men are placed in a situation that is entirely different than any other.
Think of it as a group of gazelles complaining about working out in front of a bunch of cheetahs. That wouldn't be unreasonable, would it?

In fact, Ethics, you made a similar point in a thread recently,something about how men just can't help ogling good looking women, that it is just the way guys are made. Remember?

I chastized you because your wife is better looking than the picture you were drooling over. The reverse is <B>not</B> true. Women do not salivate over men as a bodily function.

[cdw]

Puke away babe, I am a blonde. And trust me, I've used the excuse to my advantage many a time. It doesn't bother me....you're given lemons, make lemonade.
Perhaps the issue that some of the other women are getting upset about don't upset me because I'm older? Some men a pigs. Granted. Some women are insecure. Granted. Some women are pigs and you can't deny it. It's been said, if women want to be like men, why don't they behave like nice men. I agree. Now, it used to be really lopsided. We fought for our rights. We have laws in place. The pendulum has swung and is still swinging in the oposite direction of how things used to be. It will eventually swing back. We fought for equality. We are closer than we ever were before. And, IMO, the men are going to start fighting for theirs also. Good for them. It makes me smile that the shoe is on the other foot. But, having been in their position, I completely understand the gripe.
I don't understand the statement about how this is hurting women (made by Ethics), and I don't think you are going to change some men who look at women as only one good screw. Accept it. It isn't going to happen. And many women like that, by the way.
For those of you that don't, don't go to those types of facilities. For those that want their own facility, have it. And let the men have theirs. Start talking business between women when at your own facilities instead of gossiping. Learn to play golf and talk business there. Invite other women to come out and talk business.
I dunno... I just don't get it.

[melpomene]

And you fix the core issue by establishing and strengthening those elements in society that are deemed inequitable.

*wages
*finances
*employment and advancement
*education
*health
*access to resources
*information and empowerment
*housing
*responsibility
*integrity

[cdw]

Women do not salivate over men as a bodily function.

That, in my experience is really untrue. I can't tell you how many women have gone goggly and said the most insane rude things over my husband. I can't tell you how many times I have been in a bar (I used to own one) and listened to women talking about a guys butt. Or the load in their pants. All women? No. All men behave that way, no. Ethics, lol, well, yeah. j/k

[Biker]

Originally posted by pcysmith
I have to agree. It's not a double standard. Women working out with men are placed in a situation that is entirely different than any other.

So let me get this straight.. Because some feel incomfortable doing something in front of men, it's okay to create a facility that discriminates based on gender.

So if I and a few others felt uncomfortable playing tennis around women, it would be alright to establish an all male tennis club?

[ethics]

Originally posted by Sharondippity

Your attitude is that nothing matters but the fact that the ruling is in opposition to females requesting equal rights.

Nonsense. Not sure who's posts you've been reading, but that's not what I have been writing. You wanted to give historic taste, that's fine, let me give you a few more double standards in schools.

When American schools try to develop special program for boys, they find either NOW or ACLU at their doorstep, poised to oppose them. In 1989 for example, threats of lawsuits from both of the aforementioned organizations prevented the Detroit public schools from proceeding with plans for all-male academies for at-risk urban youths.

When schools in Dade County, FL, were considering establishing 2 all-male classes for underachieving boys, the US Department of Education's Office of Civil Rights blocked them.

Other women's groups, such as the National Women's Law Center, suggest that the same-sex programs may be justifiable for girls but not for boys. Deborah Brake, a senior counsel at NWLCN notes that the "considerable network" of federal,state, local, and private scholarships and programs for girls and women may be legitimate because of past inequities:

"In light of the history of discrimination against women in education and the barriers that female students continue to face based on their gender, there may be a legitimate place for such programs."(1)

Judith Shapiro, president of Barnard College, is less tentative. In 1994, in an op-ed piece for Baltimore Sun, she wrote, "in a society that favors men over women, men's institutions operate to preserve privilege, women's institutions challenge privilege and attempt to expand access to the good things of life."(2)

1. Deborah Brake, "Single-Sex Education a After VMI".

2. Judith Shapiro, "What Women Can Teach Men," Baltimore Sun, November 28,1994, page 11.

Again, the issue is double standards. If any women who is a proponent of women's only health club and come forth and say AYE! to a men's only health club? If I see all of the ones that I have been debating with (minus Melopene) come forward and agree to this my debate is done and over with.

How many "aye's" will I get?

[melpomene]

Originally posted by cydweeks
And, IMO, the men are going to start fighting for theirs also. Good for them. It makes me smile that the shoe is on the other foot. But, having been in their position, I completely understand the gripe.


and i DO get it. Men are very nervous of loosing their power bases.

I, for one, will not, for an instance put up with this attitude of the men. They will just have to live with it. Bringing up the ratio and equilibrium of women's access to resources, jobs, child care, housing etc, is going to happen more and more.

[melpomene]

Originally posted by Biker

So if I and a few others felt uncomfortable playing tennis around women, it would be alright to establish an all male tennis club?

See this question?

Prime example.

A tennis club and a Womens Health Club.............yes, i see the similarities. :rolleyes:

[Biker]

Oh spare me the nazi feminism... You want equality and then some. This isn't about playing fair across the board, it's nothing more than a percieved injustice and an attempt to get more than what's fair.

[ethics]

Originally posted by pcysmith

In fact, Ethics, you made a similar point in a thread recently,something about how men just can't help ogling good looking women, that it is just the way guys are made. Remember?


Over a picture in a Gin Joint? Come now.

There's a difference between looking, staring and ogling. I don't do the latter two of the three.

[pcysmith]

Originally posted by Biker
So let me get this straight.. Because some feel incomfortable doing something in front of men, it's okay to create a facility that discriminates based on gender.

So if I and a few others felt uncomfortable playing tennis around women, it would be alright to establish an all male tennis club?
Now why in hell would you feel uncomfortable playing tennis in front of women? Women don't get a boner looking at men and I don't care what they say in a bar. It's not a bodily function for women, it is for men. A man can pose a threat to a woman but rarely, if ever, is the reverse true. It has nothing to do with discrimination or equality. It's got to do with those men, and I'm not saying all men but lots of them, getting their rocks off watching women bending over. In fact it attracts the type of man who is so inclined.

[cdw]

Men are very nervous of loosing their power bases

Perhaps. But from what I am seeing there are quite a few women that are afraid to share that power base on equal footing with men, perhaps because they are afraid of losing what ground they have gotten. That will have to change. And that responsibility falls directly on the shoulders of women.

[Misu]

The only problem I see with your solution, Cyd, about women talking business at the club, etc, is the fact that men still hold much control over the business world. Shit, we earn on average, 73% of what men earn, all things being equal except gender.

[pcysmith]

<B>AYE</B>. No problem here.

[melpomene]

Originally posted by Biker
Oh spare me the nazi feminism... You want equality and then some. This isn't about playing fair across the board, it's nothing more than a percieved injustice and an attempt to get more than what's fair.

No, you asked the question. And i am posting to you that there are no similarities. And you have acknowledged that by not acknowledging it.

[ethics]

Originally posted by pcysmith
<B>AYE</B>. No problem here.

Excellent! :thumbsup:

Do I hear more?

[Biker]

Then I say you're operating under a gross misconception. The mere fact that this is being explained away as a "sexism" issue tells me that there's a long way before women will really see what true equality is.

Why is it perfectly okay to discriminate against men, but it's oh so horribly wrong to discriminate against women?

[melpomene]

No disagree.

Now wait a sec Biker.

Please explain to the board, what are the similarities between a Male Tennis Club and Female Health Club?

[pcysmith]

Originally posted by ethics
Over a picture in a Gin Joint? Come now.

There's a difference between looking, staring and ogling. I don't do the latter two of the three.
But your point was that men are just that way. I know they are and that is fine. It's what makes the world go round. But it is a problem when women are in skimpy attire and assuming positions that expose their bodies in ways that they would not normally do. Come on, would you want your wife being gawked at just because she's working out and can't find a place with no men in it?

[ShinyTop]

Mel, just keep ignoring the fairness questions. You are making men who daily fight for equality wonder why they should when it is becoming obvious women will not and are not settling for equality, they must have special situations. Scream about losing their power bases, huh, crap. You are bitching about 1% of the male population and making us all pay for it. How many men in this forum do you think are members of these men only clubs where women are excluded and business is one? At the corporate levels I have observed it is not done. Any possibility of it being done is frowned on thanks to the incredibly dumb laws used to overcorrect the situation. If you don't want us to consider the 1% of women who are out and out bimbos representative of all women that don't expect to lump us all in one group to make your case. Its okay for women to be special and demand fairness, but don't let men, you are not through punishing us yet. Ya, I got it.

[Biker]

Both promote health and fitness do they not? Come on.. If you get your health club, I get my tennis club.

[IamZed]

I don’t want to exercise with women. Gaping is fair play at the mall and at the beach, but that’s about it. I would be constantly averting my eyes from what they most wanted to look at, and that is very annoying after a while.
The last thing I want when I am trying to exercise is a woody. I think the alternating plan is a good one, as both have equal access to the same resources.

Cant this ever get back on track?

[cdw]

Ethics, you know that I don't care if you guys have a club. Doesn't bother me in the least. So, AYE.
Have it. You'll be bored to death, nothing to look at, rofl.

Misu, yes, there is still an unbalance. So take the bull by the horns and start talking business. Not kids, not in laws, not what you made for dinner, talk BUSINESS. Investments. Money. Moving forward. Help each other to get ahead.
Do you know how difficult it is to find women that will talk business? And not the gripes about the office, I mean business.
Take control.

[pcysmith]

One more thing, Ethics. If that little baby is a girl you'll start thinking about how the little boys are looking at her and then, boy howdy, your teeth are going to itch.;)

[ethics]

Originally posted by pcysmith
But your point was that men are just that way. I know they are and that is fine. It's what makes the world go round.

Yes, men are visual, we get turned on visually, but every man can control his reaction to a woman. Which goes back to my issue of the issue itself and how to deal with it.

[ethics]

Originally posted by pcysmith
One more thing, Ethics. If that little baby is a girl you'll start thinking about how the little boys are looking at her and then, boy howdy, your teeth are going to itch.;)

I've been through it with my wife, still go through it. And no matter how many times some bozo approaches her in a store, or some idiot is checking her out while I am standing right next to her, I still would not want to segregate the sexes.

[ethics]

Originally posted by cydweeks
Ethics, you know that I don't care if you guys have a club. Doesn't bother me in the least. So, AYE.
Have it. You'll be bored to death, nothing to look at, rofl.
.

That's two AYE's!
:thumbsup:

Any more?

[melpomene]

Originally posted by Biker
Both promote health and fitness do they not? Come on.. If you get your health club, I get my tennis club.

A tennis club. For men or women to play tennis. A court, a canteen, a toilet, a bistro, hire equipment, oh a possibly a first aid kit.

A womens health club......................the title says it all. Womens health, is a huge issue. Huge. All the connotations around the statement "Womens Health" brings up many, many, many issues.

*physical health
*psychological health
*health monitoring
*exercise and exercise equipment
*dietitian
*gynaecological resources
*child care
*access to child rearing resources
*financial support or access
*legal access and support
*access to questions on sexuality and relationships

[ethics]

Demi? Sharon? Misu?

If any women who is a proponent of women's only health club and come forth and say AYE! to a men's only health club? If I see all of the ones that I have been debating with (minus Melopene) come forward and agree to this my debate is done and over with.

How many "aye's" will I get?

Come on, ladies, I need my beauty sleep!!!

[pcysmith]

Originally posted by ethics
I've been through it with my wife, still go through it. And no matter how many times some bozo approaches her in a store, or some idiot is checking her out while I am standing right next to her, I still would not want to segregate the sexes.
Yeah, but how about when she's wearing a leotard and bending over with her head between her legs (yes, she will be able to do that again one day soon) and you're not there. How do you feel about that? It's not fun.

[melpomene]

Originally posted by ethics
I've been through it with my wife, still go through it. And no matter how many times some bozo approaches her in a store, or some idiot is checking her out while I am standing right next to her, I still would not want to segregate the sexes.

and this is in the store. Clothed.

Imagine your wife on the floor of a gym, doing pelvic floor exercises. There are a group of men at the cooler getting a glass of water and they are eyeing off your wife as she is doing these very "visual", very "demonstrative" exercises on the floor.

i rest my case..........................

[ethics]

Originally posted by pcysmith
Yeah, but how about when she's wearing a leotard and bending over with her head between her legs (yes, she will be able to do that again one day soon) and you're not there. How do you feel about that? It's not fun.

She goes to the gym here in Brooklyn, she handles herself well with me and without me. I've yet to intervene. Honestly? I don't even think about it because jerks will always live in this world and there's more of them (according to her just now) on the subway, than in the health spa.

[ShinyTop]

Men's health club - the title says it all. but wait, I am a man, I am incapable of understanding why you are incapable of answering my question, and I am not asking about a tennis club.

Why are women's health clubs okay and last week a man's health club was not. Simple question.

[cdw]

Perhaps the exercise facilities are different where you live.
I belonged to a woman's only facility. There were weights, machines, and they tried to sell dietary products made by their company under their own brand. Nothing else.
As for skimpy clothing? All the women I saw were in gym shorts and T shirts or full exercise outfits, no makeup and looked like shit, quite frankly.

[Biker]

Originally poste