Religions and How they Interect

[ethics]

My mom is Christian Orthodox, my dad is Jewish, which makes me, according to Jewish and Christian laws, a Christian--and yes I was baptized. I've had a thread and a discussion on my choices in life and let's just say I lean towards apatheism than anything else.

Anyway, an interesting thing I recently found out. My mom goes to this old monastery to pray. My dad never enters the building and I was wondering why.

A Jewish orthodox friend of mine described it as "damned if you do and damned if you don't" scenario. I asked him to elaborate and he wasn't sure if I was serious, I urged him on.

In simple turns, he says, it's a matter of not only religion but customs. It is customary to bow down in Church to Jesus Christ. To do that, would be to desecrate Judaism, since not only was Christ not the son of God, in Jews' eyes but also a rebel who ended up causing a lot of pain to the Jews.

To NOT bow, you are desecrating the Church, and Judasim has very strong laws and rules about doing that to other religions, they don't.

I was wondering how does different branches of Christianity handle other religions like Judaism and Islam?

[Misu]

Well, my family was New Apostle, which is a stricter form of Christianity, and from what I got out of church, my religion just didn't deal with Judaism or Islam. Most of the people in my church weren't even friends with Jewish people or with Muslim people - and hardly were acquaintances with other Christians or Catholics.

It all depends on the branch, but as far as New Apostle goes, they were quite strict.

[Advocat]

I was raised United Church of Canada, which is pretty much as easy-going white-bread protestantism as you can get.

We like everybody... ;)

[ethics]

Misu, in your religion, what would happen if you went to another branch of Christianity? Say Catholic Church?

[Misu]

I don't really know, but I could ask my mom who was really into the church. Something big happened and the church sort of turned against my family when I was young, so I don't really know. I just remember it being very strict, and recall whenever I would mention my jewish friends from school, many of the church people would crinkle their noses at me.

I will ask my mom.

edit: Just found my religion's website...?

http://www.newapostolicchurch.org/

[Steve]

I'm a member of the United Church of Christ, the abbreviation of which is sometimes interpreted as "Utterly Confused Christian" ;)

We actually hold an Easter Seder every year, to stay "grounded", I guess, in the origins of Christianity.

As regards Islam, we pretty much are liberal toward everyone.

[ethics]

So you would have no problem going in to a Temple, or a Mosque?

[mikeky]

Originally posted by ethics
So you would have no problem going in to a Temple, or a Mosque?
To look, to talk, to be present at a service, no problem. Participating? No. For other Christian denominations, depends on the church and activity.

BTW, I very much respect your dad's show of respect.

[ethics]

Originally posted by mikeky


BTW, I very much respect your dad's show of respect.

Thank you.

[Steve]

Originally posted by ethics
So you would have no problem going in to a Temple, or a Mosque? I, personally, would not, even if I weren't a member of a liberal, Protestant Christian denomination that doesn't frown on such activities.

I go to my wife's Catholic services, as she goes to mine.  We sit and stand at the appropriate times, and when the parts of the service are familiar to us, we participate; when they're not, we just remain silent and respectful.  Before we became used to the routines, one or the other of us would be mildly embararrased for a few moments, as we committed a minor faux pas, but so what?  That minor embarassment would be the extent of my worries about attending Temple or going to a mosque for Islamic services.

For me, and again this is purely my personal take on the issues, my worldview and understanding of other people is increased by partaking of the unfamiliar.  I am simply fortunate not have developed any belief structures that require me to make the sorts of choices your father made, choices which, may I add, are very honorable and respectful, to me.

[Misu]

Stevent, I think what you said about partaking in the unfamiliar is really cool and very enlightened. In a way, I feel cheated because of my early upbringing in my Church.

Although I do not recall them specifically stating anything in particular against Jewish people, I do remember the uncomfortable feelings and the sudden cold shoulders whenever my family talking about some of our Jewish friends (how can you not have Jewish friends in New York, I ask you??)

I will say this, though - the New Apostle Church in North America is vastly different from what my mother says the religion was like in Uruguay when she was growing up. They're much more strict here, I've heard her say. This could account to the huge blow out that happened with my family versus the church over, of all things, a freaking wedding. And the blow out that resulted because of the wedding incident spilled over to everythind related to the church - when it started affecting how my brother and I were being treated in Sunday school, my mother told the church to go to hell and removed my family from the congregation.

After my father's death 4 years ago, however, some of the Apostles contacted my mother and performed some sort of religious ceremony to help my dad's spirit pass to the other side, or so they claimed. I don't really remember much, I was in shock, and all I remember is about 5 apostles surrounding me, telling me to "let it out - you must cry", even though that's not how I cope with death. *shrug* Like I said, it's a very strict and oftentimes odd religion, with it's quirks - but it's the N. American version that seems to be this way. So it could account for the feelings towards Jews and others, although not so much against other Christians.

[joseftu]

As a Jew, I've always felt very strongly about this. The bowing/kneeling issue is very powerful for me. I'm even uncomfortable at Christian people's dinner tables, because I don't bow my head. I'll sit quietly, respectfully, and look downward with my eyes, but the way I was brought up was that bowing is a very big deal. And in Judaism, it's only done in very very limited circumstances, and never to any person. That includes Jesus. It has to do with both the first and the second commandments.

Does this offend Christians? I hope not. I do try to stay out of Catholic churches for this reason (have never been to a mass). Although I imagine not everyone kneels. Do they?

The crucifix is another issue for me. When my daughter was in preschool, we were looking at the various local elementary schools. One that had a very good reputation had no building of their own, and although it was a public school, they shared space with a church school. There was a big statue of Mary in front, and a big crucifix on the wall in the gym/lunchroom.

When my wife and I asked, on the tour, if the cross was covered or removed on school days, we got a large dose of bad attitude. The response was "of course not! what's wrong with you!"

[Violet1966]

If we're talking about personally and not in the way we believe in a strict religious upbringing and beliefs as adults, then I'm very accepting of other religions when I'm exposed to them personally and take it all with a grain of salt.

I've been in many situations at Jewish tables, Muslim events, Catholic churches and lots of other situations where I had to sit there and observe other religious rituals and I will do whatever I need to do to be respectful. I also will participate if it's not forced on me in any way, and just think towards God and forget about the things that seperate religious beliefs. "Insert God here" is pretty universal with religious stuff. and I believe you're showing respect more for those around you and their beliefs, then you are showing their God...so it's all good as long as no one is gonna put me down for doing or not doing something wrong or right when I'm trying.

[Stiofán]

Wow, I guess I see religion differently than many of you. For me, religion is about faith. I'm Protestant Christian, but no particular denomination. I was raised Presbyterian but have attended many different Christian churches. I can pray to God as I like, whether in a church or temple (I've never prayed in mosque, never even visited one). I respect their individual practices and forms while with them, but they don't add or detract to my relationship with God.

I believe if you're Christian, it's because you believe that way, not because you were born that way. I don't believe any man or woman has a right to define what a Christian or a Jew is. I know many religions try and do that though, but I don't accept it. The problems with all religions thoughout history is the result of not the religion, but of what mankind has done to them.

Going through some human invented church doctrine to worship is not neccessary, but doesn't bother me either. I understand it for what it is. It's simply mankind's way of creating a framework, or guidebook, to study and worship God. And each religion has a different one set up. I have my beliefs which I've derived from the Bible, and when any religion teaches differently, I disregard it. It doesn't bother me though.

I guess what I'm saying is that my relationship is with God and not with a particular religion or church, but my beliefs are most closely associated with mainstream Protestant views.

[ethics]

Actually, what you are saying, if I may, is that it is not religion (man-made entity) that should define what you can and can not do, but with whatever you feel comfortable with.

If you are comfortable with your sexuality, why would you stay out of a gay bar, for example? Why not come in, and even have a good time. Even if you kiss a friend on a cheeck inside the gay bar, it would not make you necessarily gay.

If I am off, please say so and I will apologize.

[Sarge]

Here's a little Mormon doctrine:

"We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things."

There is so much good to be learned from so many. There's nothing wrong with participating in others rituals as long as they are "virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy."

Originally posted by InsAgt
The problems with all religions thoughout history is the result of not the religion, but of what mankind has done to them.
Amen!

[Stiofán]

Yeah, you're off, but only in your example. I guess you're trying to say, well, substitute the world "church" for "religion" in your first sentence and then at the end of that sentence add "in accordance with your beliefs and morals based on those beliefs".

The gay bar thing doesn't corelate too well for me because you're talking something physical vs. a belief system, but I see how you are trying to make a point. Not the best example, but to follow with an answer, I'd be one who has no problem going into a gay bar, and kissing my girlfriend on the cheek, or watching two gay folks kiss on the cheek, but I wouldn't kiss a man on the cheek there as I'm not physically made to do so i.e., it would repulse me a bit as I'm not attracted to men.

What I'm trying to say is that <i>for me</i> my religion is based on my personal interpretation of the Bible, not on any organized church. I use the churches to help me interpret the Bible, but <i>I am the only one responsible for how I believe</i> or, I don't take any one else's interpretation as my own and follow it blindly.

I have to log off for a few minutes, but I'll be back to make sure I wrote this correctly and you understand my point.

[Aria]

Jumping in from the Pagan left field ;), I've attended several different types of church services; Catholic Mass, Episcopalian Midnight Mass, Southern Baptist service. I did not participate in these services, as I don't share the beliefs being celebrated, but I sat in the back and observed. It helps to broaden my horizons spiritually and to deepen the belief that our creator speaks to us in different voices.
I can't say we really interact with Christianity/Judaism; a lot of us keep to ourselves as there are still areas of the country where we aren't tolerated very well. I have heard of Christian Witches though. ;)

[joseftu]

Originally posted by Aria
I can't say we really interact with Christianity/Judaism; a lot of us keep to ourselves as there are still areas of the country where we aren't tolerated very well.

I can relate to this, Aria, quite well. It's difficult (unfairly so) to be understanding and tolerant of, and more difficult still to be a participant in, religions that have a history of persecuting your kind. For a wiccan/pagan, I imagine there's always a knowledge, in the back of your head, that Christianity used to be about burning at the stake.

Or maybe I'm just projecting. I admit (it's unfair, and I try to suppress it, and never act on it, but it's still there) that somewhere in my head every Easter is the knowledge that this is the time of blood-libel inspired pogroms. And so on.

I like Ethics' explanation about Jews staying out of churches out of respect for their own and the othe religion, but honestly, I think there's a little bit of fear/paranoia involved, too.

[joseftu]

Steve, I understand and respect your position about religion being a more personal, faith-based thing for you.

This is historically a Christian (Protestant) point of view. It's something you've come to on your own (no doubt), but it's not a philosophy that was really known or possible in the west until the Reformation.

So it makes sense that you feel more at home in the Protestant denominations. The personal relationship with God, and the interpretation based on your own reading and prayer, are totally (exclusively) Protestant ideas.

[Fiona]

Originally posted by Advocat
I was raised United Church of Canada, which is pretty much as easy-going white-bread protestantism as you can get.

We like everybody... ;) ditto! Presbyterian.
our church invites EVERYONE and is very relaxed, contemporary while holding onto traditions such as reading from the old testament and singin old hymns. We actually are quite comfortable accepting, if not celebrating what might be considered JEWISH holidays. I was raised to think Judaism and christianity are the same religion, (ceptin for that Christ thingy rofl)

[Aria]

Looking back over history, I think Jews have been persecuted more than witches. If anyone can relate, you guys can.

At least yours is recognized as a "valid' religion though. (Common response when told what faith I am: "But don't you believe in God?" :rolleyes: )

[joseftu]

Originally posted by fiona_campbell
I was raised to think Judaism and christianity are the same religion, (ceptin for that Christ thingy rofl)
Aww...what's a little Christ thingy between friends! ;)

Originally posted by Aria
At least yours is recognized as a "valid' religion though. (Common response when told what faith I am: "But don't you believe in God?")
Just tell them, "We've been worshipping God a lot longer than you folks!" ;)

[ethics]

Originally posted by Aria
Looking back over history, I think Jews have been persecuted more than witches. If anyone can relate, you guys can.


I think every religion has been. Some are more documented than others.

[Sacchiridites]

Originally posted by ethics
I was wondering how does different branches of Christianity handle other religions like Judaism and Islam?

I am not going to even attempt to speak for one particular belief over another.&nbsp; I was first baptized (full immersion) in a Catholic church.&nbsp; I was 11,&nbsp; I believe.&nbsp; Just the act of baptism in and of itself is a very personal experience. &nbsp;If I believe the symbolism of the matter, I would participate. It would be something dependent on my spirit at the time.&nbsp;

The idea of breaking bread and taking communion is, yes, different in many different churches, but to me, it matters not what building or crowd of peoples, it matters the meaning&nbsp;to ME.&nbsp; To my own self be true, in essence.

[pcysmith]

Originally posted by ethics
My mom is Christian Orthodox, my dad is Jewish, which makes me, according to Jewish and Christian laws, a Christian--and yes I was baptized. I've had a thread and a discussion on my choices in life and let's just say I lean towards apatheism than anything else.


Ethics, I thought you might be Eastern Orthodox. So am I. My sister (who unfortunately married the <I>one and only</I> lousy Jewish husband out there) has raised her kids Jewish, although technically you must be born of a Jewish mother. Anyway, we all consider ourselves Jorthodox because both religions feel so comfortable to us. lol

[joseftu]

"Jorthodox!":nut:
I love it!

[ethics]

Originally posted by pcysmith
Ethics, I thought you might be Eastern Orthodox. So am I. My sister (who unfortunately married the <I>one and only</I> lousy Jewish husband out there) has raised her kids Jewish, although technically you must be born of a Jewish mother. Anyway, we all consider ourselves Jorthodox because both religions feel so comfortable to us. lol

I think that's really what religion should be about.

[Fiona]

(Hubby is Eastern Orthodox, well Greek, same diff)

[melpomene]

Religion...................ahhhhh!

I come from generations of women who were locked away in convents, as full time boarders. My parents lived overseas in Hongkong while i was at boarding school here in Sydney. I was naughty in Hongkong as a teenager, so the solution for every good Catholic family was to lock 'em up. rofl I went to Catholic schools overseas as a child. But i knew i would eventually end up in some hillside Colditz in Australia or New Zealand.

The rituals in the Catholic Church are so damn silly, and so subjugating for a female. Bowing and standing and kneeling and bowing and standing and kneeling all over again. Communion, all dressed up like a little white bride. Confirmation, where we are all SOOOOOOOOOOO evil and repentive. And confession, if we didnt go to confession - Sacre Bleur.

Well i did manage to get the girls to skinny dip with me often in the school pool and we did get drunk numerous times on the altar wine. rofl

No wonder Catholic girls are the worst.

Now that i am a mummy, with two daughters. Guess where they go to school, yep, to the fanciest strictest Catholic school around here. rofl

And so the cycle of life continues...............