Religious Silly Rituals

[ethics]

I will be labeled as something I am not but I am sorry. When you start to look like this:

http://imgfarm.com/images/ap/TOPIX_IRAQ_KARBALA.sff_XDG102_20030422092719.jpg

SOMEthing is wrong there. Yes, I know there's tradition, and history and culture and whatever, but come on, this rivals with the ultra-orthodox Jews and the chicken throwing.

Iraqi Shiite pilgrims slash open their heads with swords as they march and chant in front of Imam Hussein Shrine in Karbala, Iraq Tuesday, April 22, 2003. Hundreds of thousands of Shiite pilgrims marched to this city's holy shrine Tuesday to mark the death of one of their most revered saints, chanting, swaying, even cutting their bodies in an emotional ritual that had been banned for decades under Saddam Hussein.

[RRedline]

As long as people are not harming anybody other than themselves, I am all for it. Let them bleed all they want. I have to wonder how many of these people get infections and die? It is very strange, but no more strange than walking around with ashes on one's forehead. Or how about the religious history surrounding male circumcision?

I am willing to bet that this is one of those things that looks much worse than it really is. I once had a very small, almost painless cut on my head which bled much like the men seen in that pic.

[ethics]

Originally posted by RRedline
As long as people are not harming anybody other than themselves, I am all for it. Let them bleed all they want. I have to wonder how many of these people get infections and die? It is very strange, but no more strange than walking around with ashes on one's forehead. Or how about the religious history surrounding male circumcision?


You think I don't give Catholics here in NY grief for that ash on the forehead?

Not sure about the circumcision. Had mine at 13 and while I hated it back then, I surely love it now! Rather my partners do. Ooops, did I say partner[s]? I meant my wife. ;)


I wonder if a ritual like this would take place in a US city, how it would be taken?

P.S. HIV, HCV, and other blood born disease are spread like this Rred, so I am not sure I agree about them not having the potential to hurt others.

[RRedline]

Originally posted by ethics
P.S. HIV, HCV, and other blood born disease are spread like this Rred, so I am not sure I agree about them not having the potential to hurt others. Yeah, that's true, but I was referring to people who do not wish to take part in the ritual. As long as passers-by have no open wounds and generally steer clear of the blood, there shouldn't really be any danger to them.

I know if I was walking down the street and witnessed something like this ritual, I would keep my distance.

You got circumcized when you were 13? What made you do it? Did your parents convince you or did you want to have it done? Were you knocked out when they did it? How long were you sore? I am very curious because I never heard of anyone getting circumcized that late in life. I know that it happens; I just never knew anyone who experienced it. I want details! ;)

[ethics]

Long story, explained long time ago in the Gin Joint. :)

[Sir Joseph]

Chicken Throwing? I think you're a bit confused. They twirl chickens over their head (of course it's a symbolical gesture) then donate the chickens to charity for the poor people to have some food to eat.

[ethics]

Well, that's what I meant. I am insensitive ass but that ritual is a bit silly. :)

[Sir Joseph]

Don't worry, I've never done it. There's something about twirling a chicken over my head that just makes me say "No, Thanks I'll pass."

Then again, to a non-religious person, any religious custom will seem silly. 

[Steve]

Isn't there some sort of Hindu practice that involves extreme body piercing? I'm sure I've seen it on TLC, and it makes those Iraqis look like Unitarians.

[mikepd]

There are valid medical reasons for getting circumcised at any age. I know as I had mine done at age 45 and it hurt! It hurts at any age but when your a baby, you forget it by the time you are older!

[ethics]

Damn Mike, 45? I was feeling all sorry for myself!!! ;)

[mikepd]

Hurt for about two days until it had healed enough to stop bleeding. Not fun. Like I said, medical reasons can make it valid at any age and as far as religious rituals go, the Jewish prohibition against eating pork can most likely be connected with getting trichinosis from uncooked/poorly prepared meat. A lot of dietary laws/folk medicines can be traced to health reasons/benefits.

[joseftu]

Like Sir Joe said, other people's religious rituals always look silly (except when they look cool and exotic). It's an outsider/insider thing.

I just got back from spending the holiday (Passover) with my family in California. At the Seder last week, and for the few days following, my new (non-Jewish) sister-in-law felt compelled to make comment after comment about how "confusing" and "senseless" all the rules about Kashrut (especially for Passover) seemed to her. Over and over again, "That's <b>so</b> weird!" or "Yeah, like <b>that</b> makes sense! Does anyone really follow this?" or "Oh, did I put the wrong fork in the wrong drawer? Excuuussse me! How am <b>I</b> supposed to remember the difference between the milk forks and the meat forks?"

It was rude as hell, especially in front of my (luckily hard of hearing--or selectively hard of hearing) 92-year-old grandmother.

From my point of view, the whole crucifixion thing is pretty senseless and weird, and the resurrection business is just too damn <i>Twilight Zone</i>. I won't even get into the eating the body and drinking the blood routine--compared to that, the Shiite pilgrims look pretty normal.

My religion is sensible, beautiful and meaningful. Everyone else's is bizarre lunacy. ;)

[ethics]

Ah but joseftu, admiring or criticising it from a far is one thing, I doubt I would say anything to anyone when I am a guest or even a host who decided to do the rituals.

Even me, mr. insensitive, would not offend that way.

[Aria]

Joseftu, you need a fork for your milk?

[Sir Joseph]

dairy products.

[mikepd]

Don't forget it's dairy products. So cheese, yogurt and I imagine anything made with dairy has to be kept separate from meat items. Joseftu can comment more fully but as I understand it, those families that keep a strict Kosher home must follow very exact rules and they must follow it the way they were taught. I saw a Rabbi once being asked a question about the right way to keep a Kosher home and he said it was a matter of how you were raised. So, for example, in some homes you might be able to eat goose liver while in others it would be prohibited. According to the Rabbi, both views were correct. To an outsider, very confusing.

[joseftu]

Ethics, I know you wouldn't be <b>that</b> insensitive...I wasn't accusing you :)!

The rules of Kashrut do seem confusing, I'm sure, to outsiders, and even to many insiders!

They're all laid out pretty clearly in the Torah, but a lot of the contemporary manifestations arise from the Rabbinic tradition of "building fences around the law." For example, the Biblical prohibition says that you shouldn't "seethe a kid in its mother's milk." So to make absolutely sure that the hamburger you're eating is not touching the milk of its own mother...no cheeseburgers, no milkshakes with your hamburger, and in really strict homes, separate dishes (in separate drawers, washed at separate times) for meat and dairy.

To some extent, the laws aren't <b>supposed</b> to make sense. God made them, and didn't explain them except to say "I'm holy, I want you to be holy like me, so stay away from unclean things, here's how to do it." (I'm paraphrasing ;)).

The various health explanations (like about trichinosis, or problems with shellfish, or whatever) are later impositions, ideas, interpretations. They're interesting, but I'm more interested in moral and cultural explanations myself (building a separate people, and a separate culture, by making the early Jews visibly different from the surrounding peoples--and forming a group identity based on understanding, interpreting, and following a coherent body of "extra-human" laws).

I don't remember ever being forbidden to eat goose liver. But I don't think it really came up. I do remember the first time (I was about 18) I tried bacon. MMMMMMMMmmmmm! :) (and the little thrill of breaking the law made it that much tastier!)

[jfcjrus]

Heh,
Referencing ethic's pic in this thread starter, I can only think of how far the human species has not progressed since the cave man days.

Religious rituals, indeed.

It's reported that the USA doesn't want the 'clerics' to be the new government in Iraq?
Damn, judging from what those folks believe in doing to themselves in the name of 'religious beliefs', the USA really has their work cut out for them.

2000 years later, and we're still arguing about who's right, and who are the unbelievers that need to be enlightened or eliminated.
As if anyone, anywhere, will ever be able to <i>prove</i> it one way or another?

It's just an amazing testament to 2000 years of our progress in reflecting upon the teachings of all these messengers and prophets.

All in all, I wonder if maybe we'd have been better off without <i>religion</i>.

(Yipes! That thought ought to get me blackballed for awhile!)

Regards,

[Advocat]

If I remember my Old Testament properly, the milk/meat issue arose because a luxury dish was a kid (goat) boiled in the milk of it's mother.

Ah... found this:

http://www.uahc.org/torah/issue/000819.shtml

"There was a custom among the ancient heathen: After gathering up all their crops, they used to boil a kid in its mother's milk and then, as a magic rite, sprinkle the milk on the trees, fields, gardens, and orchards, believing...they would render them more fruitful the following year." (J. Spencer, cited in Theodor H. Gaster, Myth, Legend, and Custom in the Old Testament, Harper Row, 1969, p. 251)

"Why is such an offering abhorrent to Me?" God questioned.

"Because of its tragic irony," a present-day rabbi responded. "You, O God, created the mother's milk to nourish its kid, not to be a part of its death. To deal so perversely with the sacred connection between mother and child would cause You to turn away and would render Your crops fruitless and sick."

[joseftu]

Yes, but like I said, that's a much more modern interpretation (a compelling one, certainly). The biblical injunction occurs in the context (mainly) of differentiating the Jewish people from their surrounding neighbors. The idea of perverting the mother-child connection is not mentioned, and not relevant to this section. There is mention of the firstfruits, and sacrifice, and I think that this, and many of the rules of Kashrut, are really about saying "those folks ("heathens") are wrong. This is the right way!"

[Advocat]

Can't argue with that... "if they do it, it must be wrong, so do the opposite".

They are not us, we are not them. ;)

[cdw]

I'll never forget the first time I went to a Catholic wake and then the funeral and church service afterwards. I was scared to death, lol. The throwing of oneself on the casket, the incense all over the place, the reopening of the casket at the church...it was all too much for me. I don't belong to any organized religion... it's all a bit too much and unrealistic for me.