Where did it all go wrong???

[Violet1966]

You know every Easter I ask myself the same question. Where did Christians decide to put so much power in the Catholic church and twist around the peace and forgiveness that Jesus preached to us, and turn it into a tool for shame and pain?

It makes me so sad to hear people who have been turned off by religion, based on what they experienced through the church. Is religion and the church one and the same? Isn't the concept of the church, everything that Jesus was saving us from???

I am religious so this is not a church bashing thread...I'm really just curious and like I said, it's sad to know that this church thing turns so many people off, that they become atheists and despise religion due to it. They hate the church for the shame they try to inflict, when the church was founded on the beliefs of Jesus Christ wasn't it? It all doesn't make sense to me and makes me very sad and angry :(

[Biker]

Power corrupts.. Even within the church. History has proven it over and over again.

[Steve]

I attribute it to the failings of humanity to fully understand the gift.

[jfcjrus]

Originally posted by Violet1966
You know every Easter I ask myself the same question. Where did Christians decide to put so much power in the Catholic church and twist around the peace and forgiveness that Jesus preached to us, and turn it into a tool for shame and pain?

It makes me so sad to hear people who have been turned off by religion, based on what they experienced through the church. Is religion and the church one and the same? Isn't the concept of the church, everything that Jesus was saving us from???
I do believe you answered your own question.

Organized religions tend to add layers (upon layers) of their requirements, perhaps due to their interpretation, of what followers must do to worship.
Some do resort to the guilt and damnation tactic to bring followers to the true path. Bad move, in my opinion.

So, although I might believe in the fundamantal tenants of the Catholic Church, I might also have real issues with the practices of the organization itself.

And, since I have no influence to change the Pope's mind, I chose to stray and marry a paegan, which got me excommunicated.
Yea, for real. No shit. (Years of being an alterboy gained me no influence at all. ) ;)
(Was back in the 60's. I have no idea what they do today.)

So, to me, religion and church are NOT the same.
Today, I consider myself agnostic.
But, should I chose to BELIEVE (as I once was trained), I do think I could do so without the formality of an organized church.
If I truly believed, I would not need the pomp and circumstance and collection plate of a place of worship to become one with God.

So, that's why you didn't see me at services this past Sunday. I reflected upon the meaning of the day of celebration, by myself, in my own thoughts.

Just my opinion.
Regards,

[Violet1966]

I just can't understand how they can base this religion and the organized church, on the bible after Jesus Christ, and they have the nerve to be so hypocritical. Jesus was trying to do away the things that even they've done, when he was criticizing the Temple for the way they did things....the Catholic church is no better though. Are they that blind??? They are doing more harm then good.

It makes me think about this when I hear how people don't believe in religion anymore....then I can't blame them because the church is creating enemies. It was sad yesterday to hear a few friends of mine who were turned off by Church, to say Easter is all a bunch of bs. Why people let some Pope turn them off to the well meanings of Jesus for all people, is just so sad :(

[mikeky]

There was someone named Martin Luther and a whole succession of others to follow who agree with you. :)

Actually, I imagine they started out with the best intentions, but as personal and political influence weighed in, ritual became more and more important, progressing to the point where it is today, in both the Catholic as well as Protestant churches. But the bottom line is that someone truly seeking answers should not be turned off by the hypocresy of any church. After all, how many reject medicinal drugs and the good these do because some drugs are abused and can be harmful? Not many. So why reject the possibility of God and Christ because some twist and abuse religion, without first examining the history, evidence, and faith behind it?

[RRedline]

There were some good television shows on the learning type channels last night about Jesus. I am an atheist, but I still find Christianity, among other religions, very interesting. I'm not exactly sure what the "message" of Easter is supposed to be other than to accept Jesus as your Savior?

And Violet, for as long as I can remember, I have made a sharp distinction between religion and church. While my Catholic instructors certainly helped to push me away from their religion, I am certain that it would have inevitably happened even without their help. I have far too many questions to which I have yet to get satisfactory answers. It just seems to me that with religion, there are too many questions and not enough answers.

Maybe someday I'll get the answers that I seek. I won't stop asking questions.

[Steve]

Easter is definitely about the death and resurrection of Christ, and accepting him as one's Savior.

The significance of His death is that, while He was divine, He was also human; so, His suffering, His death, is something that we are supposed to be able to understand better than some abstract concept called "God".

Of course, most denominations then go on to deny Jesus' very humanity, decrying any mention of Him having "relations" with women, or being infallible in any other ways. It is difficult to accept teachings that simultaneously proclaim and deny Christ's very humanity.

[Techie2000]

I agree with RRedline. They spent too much time trying to indoctrine me with their political views in catechism than answering my questions. I personally stopped believing in God before I stopped believing in Santa Clause. In fact, at the young age I was, I personally found all my classmates quite idiotic for not believing in Santa or the Easter Bunny, yet believing in God (I also would never say it for fear of causing a big incident. [Being young and having an impressionable mind, the last thing I needed was to be "reeducated" in my beliefs by a priest or something] In fact to this day most of my classmates do not know of my true religious views. [One kid after saying he was an atheist, well now he isn't exactly accepted by anyone anymore. Course he also was the only one to make pro-war signs and create a mini pro-war rally on his desks in every class the day after the war started in Iraq...:haha:]). And although I still do not believe in God, I have learned to respect other people's beliefs and personally find religion interesting from a cultural standpoint.

[Violet1966]

Originally posted by mikeky
There was someone named Martin Luther and a whole succession of others to follow who agree with you. :)

Actually, I imagine they started out with the best intentions, but as personal and political influence weighed in, ritual became more and more important, progressing to the point where it is today, in both the Catholic as well as Protestant churches. But the bottom line is that someone truly seeking answers should not be turned off by the hypocresy of any church. After all, how many reject medicinal drugs and the good these do because some drugs are abused and can be harmful? Not many. So why reject the possibility of God and Christ because some twist and abuse religion, without first examining the history, evidence, and faith behind it?

It's funny you should say that mikeky, because I have explored different Christian denominations as a youth, and also found myself wanting to be Muslim and even Hebrew at different points of my life, but felt comfortable with the Lutheran denomination and finally made my confirmation as a Lutheran when I was in my late 20's. I had to be like 28 or so because I did it around the time my 2nd child was born. It took me that long to think about religion and find out where I fit in it all. I was never ever pressured by my parents to be religious and they weren't religious themselves at all...so I guess I have the faith I do have, because I never got turned off to it. After all it's just faith and there doesn't have to be any concrete evidence to have faith does there?

It just makes me really sad if the reason that some people turn away from faith in what Jesus taught us all, is because of the church and this pope stuff. It's sad when you think about how Jesus really was so accepting of everyone no matter what they believed their own sins were. I think Stevent summed it all up quite nicely in his last post. And that's why I'm always happy on Easter....but still kinda sad too.

Techie do you believe you would be an atheist had you not known any political views of the church though? Had you never known any church at all? Like what if the church wasn't, and there was just this story about this man named Jesus who healed and accepted leppers and respected a prostitute and didn't hold her profession against her and all and taught us that we were all brothers and sisters and are all equals. What if it was all about this Jesus saying the Old Testament was just too demanding and ritualistic and the God he knows is all forgiving and loving. I mean don't you think you might not think twice about thinking this Jesus guy was cool, had it not been for all the other stuff that followed in the years after Jesus, where the church was born? I believe I heard this weekend where the church was actually born when Paul was preaching which was more then 60 years after the death of Jesus. He was trying to get people to listen to his preaching and did things his own way and then the church just happened...but he wasn't Jesus and since then the words and meanings of it all seem to be pretty twisted and hypocritical.

Just sad...it always makes me think just how messed up something so beautiful meaning can get through the misuse of humans. Like biker said...power and corruption and all. Sad
:(

[Violet1966]

Originally posted by RRedline
And Violet, for as long as I can remember, I have made a sharp distinction between religion and church. While my Catholic instructors certainly helped to push me away from their religion, I am certain that it would have inevitably happened even without their help. I have far too many questions to which I have yet to get satisfactory answers. It just seems to me that with religion, there are too many questions and not enough answers.

Maybe someday I'll get the answers that I seek. I won't stop asking questions.

Yeah but you don't think that your pushing away from it on your own, might have left you with less bitterness had it not been for the organized church? I mean wouldn't it have made it more easy to just think happy Jesus thoughts if the church didn't mess with all of it in the longrun? :(

[Techie2000]

Yeah I would still be an atheist. I became an atheist long before the whole political agenda part of my religious education came into play. I have no problem and do not deny that a dude named Jesus was alive and did good things. However it just the whole God aspect that seems a bit farfetched to me...

[Violet1966]

Oh I understand what you're saying and fair enough. God is a complicated concept I agree 100%. I still question the existance of God myself, but I know that if and when I do, I will have no guilt for doing so because if and when the time comes that I want to have faith in God again, Jesus taught us that we are only human so it's forgiven. So it doesn't interfere with my faith and if I drift or stick to it, I know deep inside I am not going to hell for doubting God's existance. I feel accepted for being only human. It's all about faith and faith is where the belief/doubt starts....the actual existance of God is whether or not you want to have faith in something you can't prove, isn't it? Is it that people don't believe in God when they don't believe? Or is it that they can't fathom the meaning of faith? Deep and going off in a different direction a bit here...but think it's worth talking about. Love to hear others opinions on this stuff.

[mikeky]

Originally posted by Techie2000
Yeah I would still be an atheist. I became an atheist long before the whole political agenda part of my religious education came into play. I have no problem and do not deny that a dude named Jesus was alive and did good things. However it just the whole God aspect that seems a bit farfetched to me...
I think many fall into this category. But I often wonder, if one discounts the miracles and divine nature, what good things did Jesus do? Certainly the teachings were noble and good (love your neighbor, give to the poor, etc.), but there were many good teachers, prophets, etc. What made Jesus' reputation rise above all the rest, to the point of deification?

And to take it a step further, if Jesus' sayings in the gospels were recorded accurately, then, given his claims of being God, he either was mentally instable, or he lied. Or else he was God. An argument of course contingent on whether one believes the gospels weren't altered, itself the subject of many books.

[Violet1966]

I think he meant he was God like he meant that every man or woman is their own God. That's what I get from it. It was to spit in the faces of the judgemental corrupt Temple of the time I believe.

[Techie2000]

"This is my simple religion. There is no need for temples; no need for complicated philosophy. Our own brain, our own heart is our temple; the philosophy is kindness."
-Dalai Lama

[ethics]

Originally posted by Techie2000
"This is my simple religion. There is no need for temples; no need for complicated philosophy. Our own brain, our own heart is our temple; the philosophy is kindness."
-Dalai Lama

Believe it or not, Jesus Christ said the same thing although using different words.

[ShinyTop]

Originally posted by Techie2000
"This is my simple religion. There is no need for temples; no need for complicated philosophy. Our own brain, our own heart is our temple; the philosophy is kindness."
-Dalai Lama

And to the Dali Lama goes a nomination for POM (Post of the Millenium).

I think most religions start with that simple philosphy and then one minister says to the other, my religion is kinder than yours..........

If we live by that we can spend the money spent on religion now for helping people instead of feeding our ego.

[mikeky]

Originally posted by ethics
Believe it or not, Jesus Christ said the same thing although using different words.
But even the Dalai Lama himself recognizes the incompatibility between the Buddhist and Christian faith, given a deeper exploration of each.

[ethics]

I am not saying that they are one and the same but that Jesus Christ once said that your faith in Him is personal, one does not need a house of worship to pray to Him.

[mikeky]

Very true; the relationship with Christ was to be a personal one. But there was to be fellowship with others, which was the concept of the Church, a place for those to gather to jointly worship, give each other strength, and work together for good. The trappings were to be avoided though; many of Paul's letters (and Jesus teachings as well) admonish the church not to follow tradition over substance or become split into squabbling factions based on leadership, additional doctrine, etc.

[Steve]

The history of the church, though, and in particular the early persecution of Christians, resulted in a sort of "secret society", with its own rules and rituals that served to prove a person was a "true" Christian, and not merely an informant.

That unfortunate early development set the tone for much of the Catholic church's development, later on.

[Violet1966]

Yeah stand up sit down, stand up sit down, know when to say/sing what. I stand out like a sore thumb in a Catholic church. That makes sense now that you say it. LOL

I think when things got messed up was when Paul was spreading the word. He managed to solidify the Christian faith, but at the same time he created a monster in the Church :(

[Techie2000]

However, I the reason I threw up that quote, in response to Violet, was because the quote itself almost implies a lack of religion. Religion in todays terms implies belief in the supernatural or organized worship. If we all stopped worshipping together, or putting god and church into the equation, and everyone was simply just nice to each other, then we wouldn't have any religous wars, would we?

[Violet1966]

Originally posted by Techie2000
However, I the reason I threw up that quote, in response to Violet, was because the quote itself almost implies a lack of religion. Religion in todays terms implies belief in the supernatural or organized worship. If we all stopped worshipping together, or putting god and church into the equation, and everyone was simply just nice to each other, then we wouldn't have any religous wars, would we?

Yes but Techie...that wasn't the way Jesus intended it. See he didn't want this all to be the way it is. He wanted us to be nice to each other and not need to do rituatlistic things to enter a church. He was himself, fed up with church but back then it was the temple. This is why all that has happened with his words and messages, is so ironic. The church just sprung off from a good thing...and became something almost evil at times. And I'd still love to know where the heck the law comes into this with the recent evil...the priests that are raping. Where did it start that they couldn't marry? Who's freaking idea was that anyway??? Wasn't Jesus' I'm sure.

[DollarcideDude]

"Where did it all go wrong?" Violet

"In [from] the beginning, G-d Created the heaven and the earth." Genesis

:eek:
(Oh my...did he really say that?)


Yuppers Puppers, he sure did.
:Aria:

[DollarcideDude]

Originally posted by Violet1966
Yeah stand up sit down, stand up sit down, know when to say/sing what. I stand out like a sore thumb in a Catholic church. :( REALLY? Judging from your avatar Vi, I just find that so hard to imagine.
:_
Oh, yeah! He's gonna burn! He's definitely gonna burn! :rant: