SOCIOPATHS- rehabilitation possible?

[Fiona]

I would like to know everyone's opinion on the rehabilition of a sociopath. I think it's possible. Mind you, it is my belief that this is a "condition " if you will that you are born with, predisposed to... and given that I do not feel there is a CURE. However, like alcoholism, can there be successful treatment? Can a sociopath... LEARN empathy? I'm not sure you can "instill" empathy... however... can the behavior's be changed... can a sociopath, LEARN that he is wrong and do his best to follow the rules laid before him even though HE feels otherwise?

[IamZed]

As it is the total lack of concern for your fellow man, I would find that concern hard to instill. If the existence of children hasn’t done it, what will?

[ethics]

No, i don't think so. You can't learn empathy, can you?

[Steve]

Gotta agree with Zed, here. A sociopath doesn't care. Period. Perhaps some form of behavior modification can be accomplished, but it would <u>always</u> have to entail adverse consequences to the sociopath if the desired behavior isn't met. And I do mean adverse; even the threat of prison isn't usually enough to change these creatures.

[Fiona]

some interesting reading with which to argue


http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/famous/bell/portrait_12.html?sect=7

[Fiona]

Originally posted by stevent
Gotta agree with Zed, here. A sociopath doesn't care. Period. Perhaps some form of behavior modification can be accomplished, but it would <u>always</u> have to entail adverse consequences to the sociopath if the desired behavior isn't met. And I do mean adverse; even the threat of prison isn't usually enough to change these creatures.

I was wondering while reading your post.. what might be adverse... because as I've seen thus far... there is no knowledge, acknowledgement, understanding and therefor no fear of consequences

[Fiona]

what if they are wrong about no empathy... perhaps the understanding and feeling behind empathy can be learned... for th4e sake of argument... many people are often reckless and fearless... until they have a child... and I don't think it's because the rules say so, that they tone down and become nurturing parents... maybe that's OT... I dunno... Ihave many reasons to want all your opinions so please hash this one to death. :)

[melpomene]

They (? - the experts ? - the psychologists/psychiatrists/neurologists) believe that sociopathic tendencies are inherent.

They are devoid of any compassion or empathy for anyone or anything. They are self orientated. They function on Freud's "ID". They usually have blankless expressions.

They also believe that sociopaths are bred. In childhood. All have the same MO.

No i dont think they can be rehabilitated, in such, that they can have independant lives. Some social worker or rather parole officer, would always have to be looking over their shoulders.

[ethics]

Empathy can not be learned, Fiona. I remember reading that in the old days, that would make people feel what they have ensued on to others. The eye for an eye was an extension of punishing the perpetrator with the same crime he has comitted against others.

TO make a long post short, it didn't work.

[Advocat]

There are various definitions of sociopathy; in psychology and criminology, the disease/condition is considered incurable. In social work, it's considered an environmental effect and is therefore treatable, unless linked with functional organic problems (miswired brain, biochemical problem)

The following may be helpful, it takes in all views:

Antisocial Personality Disorder is also known as psychopathy or
sociopathy. Individuals with this disorder have little regard for the
feeling and welfare of others. As a clinical diagnosis it is usually
limited to those over age 18. It can be diagnosed in younger people if
they commit isolated antisocial acts and do not show signs of another mental disorder.

Antisocial Personality Disorder is chronic, beginning in adolescence
and continuing throughout adulthood. There are ten general
symptoms:

- not learning from experience
- no sense of responsibility
- inability to form meaningful relationships
- inability to control impulses
- lack of moral sense
- chronically antisocial behavior
- no change in behavior after punishment
- emotional immaturity
- lack of guilt
- self-centeredness

People with this disorder may exhibit criminal behavior. They may
not work. If they do work, they are frequently absent or may quit
suddenly. They do not consider other people's wishes, welfare or
rights. They can be manipulative and may lie to gain personal
pleasure or profit. They may default on loans, fail to provide child
support, or fail to care for their dependents adequately. High risk
sexual behavior and substance abuse are common. Impulsiveness,
failure to plan ahead, aggressiveness, irritability, irresponsibility,
and a reckless disregard for their own safety and the safety of
others are traits of the antisocial personality.

Socioeconomic status, gender, and genetic factors play a role.
Males are more likely to be antisocial than females. Those from
lower socioeconomic groups are more susceptible. A family history
of the disorder puts one at higher risk.

There are many theories about the cause of Antisocial Personality
Disorder including experiencing neglectful parenting as a child, low
levels of certain neurotransmitters in the brain, and belief that
antisocial behavior is justified because of difficult circumstances.
Psychotherapy, group therapy, and family therapy are common
treatments. The effects of medical treatment are inconclusive.
Unfortunately, most people with Antisocial Personality Disorder
reject treatment. Therefore, recovery rates are low.

[Copzilla]

A sociopath can only be frightened into compliance. Being that the person only feels for him/her self, he/she will blame the authority on the consequences of their action. It's why cops are so badly hated by a minor segment of society. They cannot see that it was their own actions and the mandate of law that they are at odds with, the breaking of which will inevitably be found out, instead choosing to blame another person in the form of the officer, bad judge, incompetent lawyer, and vowing to be smarter in not getting caught next time.

I definitely do NOT believe that sociopaths can be rehabilitated. To be rehabilitated for any problem, one must want to be, and sociopaths are incapable of wanting to change who they are, seeing themselves as the center of all things. They may make appearances of rehabilitation, but that is a manipulative ploy. How many jailhouse religious converts are there?

[IamZed]

I had an acquaintance when I was young that was always getting arrested. Each time I would ask him what he had done. Each time he would respond with the circumstances of his capture. In other words, what he perceived his mistake to be was getting caught, never committing the crime.

[Fiona]

Originally posted by melpomene
They (? - the experts ? - the psychologists/psychiatrists/neurologists) believe that sociopathic tendencies are inherent.

They are devoid of any compassion or empathy for anyone or anything. They are self orientated. They function on Freud's "ID". They usually have blankless expressions.

They also believe that sociopaths are bred. In childhood. All have the same MO.

No i dont think they can be rehabilitated, in such, that they can have independant lives. Some social worker or rather parole officer, would always have to be looking over their shoulders.
What I meant was... what if the experts are wrong... let's say a diagnosis of sociopath at an early age... is it possible this person can be nurtured and maybe they aren't a complete sociopath? (dunno)

[Advocat]

The question of cause is why psychologists/criminologists and social workers diverge. How do you tell a learned antisocial behaviour (which some social worker theorists define as a survival trait in certain urban environments... though to me that just sounds like a new variation of the old "he came from a bad place" argument) from a functional organic sociopath, someone who is incapable of having a conscience for biochemical/physiological reasons?

[Fiona]

I do believe you can develop a sociopath..and inthat light I believe THEY can be altered, nurtured, undeveloped -haha... anyway...anything learned can be unlearned... the ones who are chemically, biological... born that way... I don't know if there is anything you can do.. I haven't found what it might be. I now there are some cases... but they are weak. What about drugs?

[melpomene]

Copzilla, i do not agree with your first paragraph at all.

The way you have expressed yourself in the first paragraph, suggests to me, that you feel that disadvantaged, criminally active of our society are all sociopathic. This is rubbish.

This end of the spectrum of our society are usually the battlers with little resoures. Who are constantly screened by the cops. Who do not have stable family structures in place, have little education, poor prospect of employment etc etc. Their beef with the cops, is the constant labelling. Because we are fully aware that the cops, hit the familiars in an area of crime first.

Sociopathy in this part of society...............is not in full bloom.

In fact, sociopaths, cannot be labelled in any part of society. You can find them across the spectrum.

[Copzilla]

I don't believe I reference either the advantaged or disadvantaged. In fact, I believe I talked about Ken Lay and his lack of empathy. I haven't spoken of any spectrum of society, only that a sociopath will rapidly blame another (frequently a cop, as this IS my point of reference after all) for their own crimes.

"Their beef with cops is the constant labeling"? I'm not labeling anyone. Are you denying that sociopaths frequently choose a criminal path and then blame anything but themselves?

[melpomene]

I am saying that there is no way a sweeping generalisation can categorise something as complex as sociopathy...................which is what your post suggests to me.

[Misu]

Originally posted by fiona_campbell
I would like to know everyone's opinion on the rehabilition of a sociopath. I think it's possible. Mind you, it is my belief that this is a "condition " if you will that you are born with, predisposed to... and given that I do not feel there is a CURE. However, like alcoholism, can there be successful treatment? Can a sociopath... LEARN empathy? I'm not sure you can "instill" empathy... however... can the behavior's be changed... can a sociopath, LEARN that he is wrong and do his best to follow the rules laid before him even though HE feels otherwise?

I honestly don't think so only because they've got no motivation.

Why should they do what they know is right - they don't care who they hurt. Most don't even care what happens to themselves. So what's "in it" for them? Sociopaths are a problem precisely because they don't care. They don't care about anything.

[Misu]

Originally posted by fiona_campbell
What I meant was... what if the experts are wrong... let's say a diagnosis of sociopath at an early age... is it possible this person can be nurtured and maybe they aren't a complete sociopath? (dunno)

Nope, because my brother was diagnosed at age 7, and my parents bent over backwards to give him everything - often times indulging him on MY birthday, giving him gifts and stuff on MY birthday, getting more stuff on Christmas (one christmas, I only received 1 cheap gift, while he had something like 14). My parents were instructed to show him love and nurture his every whim - basically spoil him.

It did nothing. Growing up in that house with my parents kissing his ass and my brother doing whatever the hell he wanted, it was HELL. I often found myself in physical fights with him because he was just attack me - he knew he could get away with it, as I was often the one to be punished.

On other words - following the advice of the experts, my parents gave him everything he wanted. And he took it as an opportunity to do whatever he wanted.

He still does. And he's 25 years old.

[Steve]

Is he happy?

[Misu]

My brother? Depends what your definition of "happy" is.

Do I think he feels actualized? No. Is he proud of himself for his accomplishments, however small they may be? Yes.

Is he happy whenever he gets away with something (like stealing or drinking or taking the car for a joyride?) - yes. Is he happy when he's prevented from doing these things? No - actually, he sometimes gets quite violent when you prevent him from doing something.

[Steve]

Not prying, I hope you understand. Just trying to get a feel for whether or not such persons are happy/contented/whatever with the life that their condition has brought them.

It's a given that they cause problems for others.

But is it a problem for them?

[Misu]

Well, again, what is your definition of "problem"?

Does he lose sleep over it? Nope.

But healthwise, he's not living a healthy life. Right now, his body can take the binge drinking, the sex, the smoking, the drugs, because he's 25. When he's older (if he reaches that age), he's going to pay for it.

I don't mind discussing this, either. You know I'm an open person, Stevent - besides, talking about it is good, allows me to vent and talk about what I think with people who don't tell me to be quiet because he might hear me (everytime I heard that, I just wanted to walk out of the house).

It is quite interesting to grow up in a house where your sibling is antisocial. And it's very strange - he wasn't born that way. I remember when we were younger (I was about 6 or 5, he was 2 years my junior) - we were friends. We played together, we shared everything, and he would get upset whenever I had to go to school. But at around age 7, things changed. He turned very violent, and I was forced to fight back. I had never even HIT anyone or been hit by anyone until my brother changed.

I believe it has to be some sort of chemical problem. What chemicals, I don't know. But when he left for Job Corps a few years back, he was placed on some meds, and that seemed to have gotten him through, and he earned his Highschool diploma (he had dropped out of school in 9th grade) and he earned his Med Tech license. He currently lives with my mom, and so far things seem to be going good. But he's no longer taking the meds, so it's only a matter of time before things go back to how they were.

I wish I knew the meds he was taking - he had told me about a year ago, and I remember thinking to myself "WHOA - they give that to psychotics!!" I can't remember the names now, but they were pretty heavy duty - but they worked.

[Fiona]

I wish I knew too... so far I can't find anything...

[Copzilla]

Originally posted by melpomene
I am saying that there is no way a sweeping generalisation can categorise something as complex as sociopathy...................which is what your post suggests to me.

Sociopaths really aren't that complex. They have very common denominators, being a person without empathy. Their motivations, regardless of what their outward appearances may suggest at a particular time, are completely self motivated.

Sociopaths are predisposed toward a criminal lifestyle, or to break minor laws as they see fit - largely based on whether they believe they can get away with it. Because they are self motivated, they know what they do affects others, but simply don't care. And when they do get caught, are not inclined to feel remorse for their actions with regards to how it affected someone else, but remorse that they are in a worse predicament than they were before. In doing so, they typically want to place themselves in a victim role - victim of bad law enforcement, victim of a ruthless judge, victim of their upbringing. They acknowledge that what they did affects someone, but will deflect that issue, instead choosing to focus on their perceived tormentors - whatever authority that may be. Usually an actual true evaluation of their upbringing won't justify their actions, as opportunities were available and they did not choose to sacrifice themselves for a benefit more easily obtained by victimizing someone.

I know sociopaths. I understand very well what they are, and they are not limited to one particular segment of society, neither am I addressing any segment of society by pointing out what they're about.