Do we have the right?

[BestFriend]

I wonder how many people stop to think about their heritage...here in the U.S.A. We have various heritages amongst us and in ourselves. We are quick to claim just being American and when the mood suits some of us boast our Irish heritage at St. Patricks Day and so on. How quickly do we forget the heritage that a lot of us share in being of German decent and the horrors of that lineage.

Can we sit by and slam another nation or nations in the current state of war?

I thought of this as I drove home from work and felt a sadness in my heart for people everywhere.

Not being of a structured religion in practice, I still prayed a prayer for all of mankind.

A simple prayer for the goodness of all menkind. Yes, I am a humanist. What is the good for the majority of mankind, then I am for it. Though it will never stop the hurt of knowing that many lives will pay for this in times of war.

Some say it was unavoidable...others...well there is always an alternative.

Who are we to judge? We in the U.S. have voted the people in control.

How many people do you hear now that did not vote?

[Fiona]

Well said... and welcome. :)

[bruzzes]

Welcome BestFriend.

And what a conundrum you pose.

It is true that many curse the people and country in general rather than the leaders who posit the countries policies.
How often have I heard the French jokes in this forum making light of a people instead of the actions of it's leaders.

Here in this country [the US] ethnic heritage has always been maintained, but has been subjugated to the nationalistic idea of being Americans.

I can't help but think of the famous words of Abraham Lincoln? when he said "United we stand, divided we fall".
In times of great peril, we have united. This time, the enemy is not a country but a zealot element of global consequence. It is indeed insidious as these elements become pervasive in all countries.

I fear nationalism. It has caused the last two world wars. At this point in time, we do not have to fear it's consequences here in America. The country shows much healthy dissent.

I too pray for world peace. This world peace must start from the individual themselves. It would be advantageous if there was a body, not unlike the UN, where ideas and their consequences could be discussed on a world stage. Not to make policy, but to enlighten the mindset of a global community.

[BestFriend]

This site is awesome! And as I review the opinions of each individual I am in awe of the wealth of insight and wisdom that we the normal people have. Sure makes me wonder how some of the leaders of nation really get to be leaders. While in some countries it is a matter of votes and yet in other it is of what family you are in and what birth succession you are born by. What pray tell make one ready to be such a leader to lead any nation.

No matter how one gets there, there is a burden on the individual's being to aim at the best for all individuals of that country. With advisors at their sides. Those who's soul purpose is to study to no ends the passage of time.

How then can we lay blame on just the leader?

It does seem odd that with all of history of wars over power that the root of all conflict is usually that of power alone that is the major problem.

Not just in war but, even down to basic relationships...be it between male and female, alike sexes, or a work relation. It is always one one person trying to make their way or preference be the final say.

Hmmnnn....Just a bit of give and take. Sometime it is your turn and sometimes it is the other person's turn. Sometimes it is mutual giving and giving up that can make any situation work out.

What a world we live in of minor and major relationships.

[ethics]

Originally posted by BestFriend
How then can we lay blame on just the leader?

It does seem odd that with all of history of wars over power that the root of all conflict is usually that of power alone that is the major problem. 


 

We can't actually. One of the parellels I can draw was Nazi Germany and how regular German citizens went along with the leadership. Did they agree with it? Goldhagen, an assistant professor of government and social studies at
Harvard University and a son of a Holocaust survivor, certainly thinks so.


         I say these people believed what they were doing
         to Jews was the right thing. The most committed
         anti-Semites in history come to power and turn a
         private fantasy into the core of the state.


 Goldhagen depicts Germany even before the Nazi period as "pregnant
with murder," gripped by "hallucinatory anti-Semitism," a society in
which anti-Semitism was a "culturally shared cognitive model," a
profoundly ingrained, reflexive response.

        writes Dinitia Smith
The book, 461 pages of text, 141 pages of
         footnotes and appendices, is one of the most
         scathing indictments of ordinary Germans during
         the Nazi period to be published.

 In chapter 15, "Explaining the perpetrators' actions: Assessing the
competing explanations," pp. 375-415, he rejects as false such
explanations for German behavior as:

  1. That the killing was primarily done by SS and Nazis.
  2. That the perpetrators were coerced.
  3. That they were compelled according to the once famous Milgram's
     model of obedience to authority.
  4. That, as Hannah Arendt maintained, they behaved like mindless
     bureaucrats.
  5. That the entire Final Solution was so fragmented and compart-
     mentalized that the ordinary Germans did not know what they were
     doing.
  6. That were they to disobey they would suffer dire consequences.

Many other writers (e.g. Christopher R. Browning) made points
somewhat similar to Goldhagen's contention about ordinary Germans'
extraordinary willingness to take part in the murder of Jews,

         But no other major book has made the point with
         such force that there was something basic in the
         German character that brought about the
         Holocaust.

He writes

         It was as if humanity had entered "a new moral
         order."

         But their actions were the result of a German
         society saturated with anti-Semitism. Even Karl
         Barth, the Swiss theologian who taught in Germa-
         ny in the early 1930s and became an opponent of
         Nazism, had "a deep-seated anti-Semitism.

         Most anti-Semites just wanted to get Jews out of
         the country, but to Germans, Jews were metaphy-
         sical enemies. Some Germans protested the kill-
         ing of Poles, and of handicapped people, but not
         of Jews. Even members of the anti-Hitler
         Resistance were anti-Semitic.

         Finally, when SS chief Heinrich Himmler, hoping
         to negotiate with Americans at the end of World
         War II, forbade the further killing of Jews,
         some Germans kept on.

--Much of the above material obtained from a listserver that discussed this book. When the book came out, and I read it and sent it off to Mary Beth Finnerty (who is not browsing the forum *waves*) I didn't believe Goldhagen and was in the belief that it was simply impossible for "good" Germans to behave this way. Almost 10 years past, I have changed my mind since.

Are people responsible what US leadership is doing, without a doubt. The stronger take in Democracy, the more responsibility falls on the common citizen.

[BestFriend]

If you wish to reference the Germans and the Jews, was there not some Germans that knew that what Hitler was doing was wrong and helped the Jews to safety as much as they could...was there not those that died for the preservation of their neighbors and all lived in one country. Those same Germans in fear played one life in front of the Regime and yet in real life led a double idenity?

I am certainly in the belief that in countries that vote in their leader, yes, they can lay the blame on themselves. But once the leader is in power and decides to uses that power against another group(s) then can we blame that leader if it is against the majority of the county or even the world?

Likewise, what of the leader that is born into his leadership by sucession? Can we blame him?

All in all, there is still others around him that could raise against the leader even if it is Mutiny at Sea!

[Sacchiridites]

Good one. Didn't I tell you, girlfriend???? It's ALL about the powah! Whether personal, professional, or political. It's ALL about the POWER.
The heaviest thing on my mind right now IS the power of the U.S. and how it's perceived and wielded throughout the rest of the world. I don't like not being able to travel. I don't like being hated by whole groups of people, even whole countries that never get to know me as a human being. It limits my opportunities for growth. I don't want any power.... I just want to learn and love PEACEFULLY. Selfish, huh?

Well, there is no good cause to slam a complete group, whether they're grouped (for ease of control and power) because of nationality, religion, ethnicity, sexual orientation, etc., etc. But, IMHO, if that 'group' is causing severe distresses on humanity.....such as KKK physically harming another homo sapien...then somehow, some way, it has to be curbed for the GOOD of humanity. "By whom?" is always the question. The answer is NOT always the U.S.A.
In LARGE, established groups (including big business), I've noticed that something along the way is always twisted in order to manipulate because of the fear of another's power. It's a grappling for power pure and simple. And we all know that it's only ignorance that makes us fear. I tell you, wherever there is a group, there is ONE person, ONE idea, ONE little human desire for power that will twist it all up into something ugly for the rest of humanity to deal with. It's natural and can't be avoided. Take a look at Malcolm X.

Isn't this is what the U.S. (I don't like the term "America" because it's pretentious...there IS North AND South America) is all about?
People do still come here, to the United States of America, from ALL over the world for a chance at their OWN power. All of these draw others to our shores: to OWN a little piece of land; the right to live peacefully and make a hard-working living; the right to SAY what you believe; an opportunity for education and the closest thing to freedom next to our personal choices we could have under one government. Yeah, I know, the U.S. is all about choices. That's the beauty of the U.S. However! TOLERANCE IS NOT AN EXCUSE FOR APATHY!!!

As far as those in office, I have no idea, nor do I care to speculate how they're feeling or thinking about one matter or another. Whether it's a regime, monarchy, or democracy or what have you... I can only hope (and vote-for which I am grateful again...) they DO what is best for HUMANITY. The proof is in the action, right?

Bruzzes, I, too fear nationalism in the sense that it is a puffed up pride.. one that is not real, even. An oxymoron, if you will. It's a false sense of power in a powerless time. Nationalist.. me? heh. No, but I AM GRATEFUL to be a U.S. citizen.

Talk to me about the current Native American's plight. Tell me more about the Chinese and Irish that built our railroads. Tell me more about the Mexicans that are now building our houses and harvesting our fields of grain. Yes, let's get back to our roots, shall we?
What's this Statue of Liberty again? WHO gave it to the U.S. and WHY?
God help the INS.

[Steve]

BestFriend, I have this to offer:

There are some principles worth fighting to protect. One is that it is proper to use force to protect the weak from the strong and cruel.

The current war with Iraq has many facets; some political, some economic, some martial. At its core, I believe, is a simple question:

Is the United States going to allow more and more countries to develop weapons capable of killing hundreds of thousands of people, or do the principles on which our nation was founded require us to take action, otherwise?

To me, the answer is clear. We can do but little regarding those nations that already possess such items, including ourselves. But for Iraq and, indeed, any other nation attempting the development of such weapons, I think our path is clear.

We must put an end to such things. That, is the paramount purpose of this war.

All else is circumstantial, though important in its own right.

[BestFriend]

Stevent,

I very good repy, I must say but, I am going to beg to differ with you on one point....

We have nuclear bombs, no? Why didn't any one stop us from building them then? And if we are allowed to have had them who is to say another country can't have something as a massive anihalation?

I may be jumping the gun here...I don't even know if we still have any. But the idea is that we did have it and no one stopped us and we used it.

Given the nature of Saddam and how he is so hated by those in Kuwait and other surrounding countries, even those that fear him in his own country and will die by his hand...I don't disagree with this war.

With Saddam, as Cie said, it is about power and for the majority I can't see Saddam or his sons in power as a good thing. All the Arab Brothers that I have head in interview outside of Kuwait and Iraq side with the nutcase. Must be because they do not live under his reqime and the manipulation of using his "Arabic" heritage in trying to form one big nation in unity against us. We pissed him off big time and now he is on vengence against us as we intervene. Can't say I remember anyone that enjoyed being removed from power unless they wanted out!

[Domh]

Times have changed, history has come and gone - and is coming around again.

Im about as classic a wasp-ass white boy as I know. Mostly Scots-Irish, but also English, French, German and probably a healthy dose of 'etcetera'.

My ancestors came to America rather early on, killed alot of natives and stole their land.

Many years have gone by, though, and I am - whether I like it sometimes, or dislike it at others, an American. Im not Irish, though I like to pretend I am cause I find it rather romantic - nor am I a raging cranky Scotsman, although I think that heritage does show through rather more forcefully than any other.

Being American is a culturally tough thing because, well, we only have a few hundred years OF culture to connect with.

Is it wrong for us to slam the countries from which almost all of us have come, not all that long ago? I dont think so, I think its just natural to support ones nation, something that is driven into us in our youth.

If Americans were to stand quiet and respectful of the nations from which we have all, in most cases, run away from, this would be a silent land, and it would not be America.

;)

[Stiofán]

An interesting post Dom. My bloodlines run Scottish, via Ireland as do yours, although our transatlantic crossing seems a bit more recent, only being 90 or so years ago and most of the native killing was over by then. Yet I often wonder why so many different ethnicities can get along so well here and not in their home lands. Being Scotch-Irish and Protestant, I can't remember the last Catholic I bombed (well, I caused my college roommate to get bombed a few times and he's Catholic), and my Arab neighbors aren't shooting too many of my Jewish neighbors, and vise-versa. I think it's because of the shared values we gain in becoming Americans. I know my family is generations away from the strife in Ireland, but it seems even recent transplants get along much better here. We can disagree, and most certainly do but it rarely rises above that. Must be something in the water.

[BestFriend]

Must be the freedom thingy that helps us get along so well together!

[Fiona]

agreed Dom... My ancestry is Native American AND Missouri)German and French... I don't have anythign against the people...it's the government... France has pushed me too far... :mad: German is just bein a weenie (rofl) but I am not ashamed to be FROM there ancestraly and I think we should all stand up for what we think is right... and hopefully truly try to understand the opposition... isn't that how people grow?

[ShinyTop]

I think it should be occasionally pointed out that our ancestors came from those countries because something was either wrong over there or opportunities existed here that were not there. Religious persecution, persecution for ethnicity, persecution for political reasons abounded. We owe little to those countries we came from.

[Domh]

Originally posted by Domhain
If Americans were to stand quiet and respectful of the nations from which we have all, in most cases, run away from, this would be a silent land, and it would not be America.

I agree with you, Shiny.

;) 

[BestFriend]

Now we are engaged in a great war, testing weather this nation or any nation so conceived and so dedicated can long endure. Time for Iraq to be liberated. WE WILL ENDURE!